Ep215: How to Build Your Community, Intuition & Resilience in Order to Succeed as an Artist | with Kristina Snyder

Zack Arnold

I'm here today with Kristina Snyder, who's a former photography agent, a photo editor of photographer and travel writer. And as of today, Kristina is the founder and CEO of Snyder, which is one of the best known and most well respected artists representation agencies in the world. And you've got offices in both the US and the UK. And most importantly, I think is really going to help us frame today's conversation. According to your LinkedIn profile, you consider yourself a creative entrepreneur with artistic tendencies, and a clear point of view on Creative Growth. There, I can't imagine a better way to frame today's conversation and how excited I am to chat with you, Kristina, thank you so much for prioritizing the time to be here.

Kristina Snyder

Thank you, Zack, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to talk to you. It's gonna be great.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I'm excited about it. Because there's, there's so many similarities, when it comes to the way that creatives and entrepreneurs see the world but you're very much in a different industry, per se, than a lot of the people that might be in my industry that are more entertainment, industry and Hollywood centric. But I love blending all these different disciplines and viewpoints, because I think it just makes us more holistic creatives, and more grounded, all of which we're going to get into further but where I actually want to start is that you may not realize this, but you and I have something very much in common, which is that we both grew up in the absolute middle of nowhere, and little tiny communities of hundreds, not even 1000s of people opposite ends of the earth. But I'm guessing you can relate to my struggle of growing up, very creative, very intellectual in a community that did not inspire or even encouraged either of them. So I want to talk a little bit more about your origin story, and how you came to be the leader and founder of this agency.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, Zack. So that's very astute, you know, because I actually I see myself as a seed that was planted but didn't really sprout until I got the opportunity to come to New York City. And so I grew up in Sweden. My family was very artistic, I would say, artistically inclined, but they weren't professionals. So my mother, for instance, was a singer. And she sang opera and operetta was when she was younger, always in choirs, etc. My father's thing was painting. And so he started a painting career when he was 50, which is something I deeply admire, you know, he had success on his own level, he sold he exhibited, but he was never in museums, but he still took painting to his heart. My sister was an amazing musician. And so the creativity swirled around and our family, I was a creative child, but I wasn't focused on in that way. So I think that, you know, my childhood, set the seeds for what I came to do later. So I was active doing arts and stuff, and dancing, and you know, doing all these things, but it didn't really occur to me that this would be something that I would do until I moved away from home and started getting deeply into photography. So photography was my first love, like, for a long time, actually, I was I went to photo school, I worked as a waitress and you know, did shoots and were in the darkroom for hours and hours. So I loved I love photography, the deepest and still do. And that actually led me to a job that later on, I mean, it's like, everything is linked, right. So I had a job at a paper, where I met somebody who invited me to work on a on a documentation in India, of photography, so so that in turn, led to me meeting somebody who then took me to New York City. And all of a sudden I was in this fertile ground of creativity. That is that meant actually, in the East Village of New York City. And we're talking 30 years ago, so it was kind of like, it was a very creative space. And I met my future husband, Danny there. He's a musician. And from being, you know, in a smaller town like Stockholm, it's really a small little, you know, fish pond in this enormous, creative, vibrant place in the East Village, which is, I'm sure you know, at the time. That's where it was happening. That was all all about creativity. And so all of our friends, they were in kooky bands, they, you know, did photography, they, they it was just like this rich, rich environment for me to explore what I really wanted to do. And so I thought about something to do, because I didn't have much, you know, I had I had a boyfriend, pretty much that was it. I had a boyfriend and a few dollars in the bank. So I started to look for a job that then led me to becoming a photo researcher and a photo editor. And that in turn, got me on the path to becoming a photo agent. So we're talking a span of 10 years between A and B. But the photo agent Singh, started about 20 years ago, 22 years ago. And so I worked as a photo agent for a good decade, doing big shoots, and working with photographers from Europe and from the US and doing portrait work, car work, location work, that kind of thing. So that that brought me to thinking, how can I make this easier because doing photo shoots for not producing them, but brokering them and negotiating them for photographers is incredibly work intensive is just exhausting work. Because there's many, many, many line items, proposals and estimates are like 20 pages long. And it was just like, grueling. But I also had started a small illustration division, just with a few illustrators, from Sweden. At the time, my company was called Snyder company and this division was Snyder in the Swedes, I thought that was very clever.

Zack Arnold

And also sounds like it could be one of those kooky bands in the East Village.

Kristina Snyder

So it was like the Kooky band thing was a big thing for me. So I had a small division of illustrators, and I noticed how easy it was to negotiate. It was like, rather than going back and forth, and back and forth, it was like, we have some money, we have a job, do you want it? Yes. And then you were off. It wasn't any anything. And I got to thinking about this a lot. I thought about illustration, and art as a as a way of expressing yourself a lot more. We're talking now 2009. And I realized, like, you know, illustration is imagination. It comes from one brain, it really comes from one filter. And, and that seemed incredibly exciting to me. I mean, the art, love, the love of art was there already, but I didn't really realize that you could do this for a living. So I started that division and that grew. And then 2013, I changed the name of the agency, I kind of stopped working with photographers at that time, and I rebranded to Snyder, New York. And so that became a bigger division with illustrators, and, you know, some of those sweet Swedes, some of the Snyder and the Swedes, crews still there, I work with two artists, Dennis Erickson and Mads Berg, who have been with me since the early days. And now when when we rebranded once again in 2000. Last year in 2020, to two Snyder just made it short, simple. And now we focus on illustrations, static illustration, and animation as well. So we are, I think, one of the few agencies that actually offer both a lot of agencies offer offer animation. But on our side, we do both. So it's illustrations that you would see in magazines, some cover books, etc. But also animation work that you would see as as short form animations online, for clients, like, you know, meta, and Netflix, and, you know, the big companies in the world. So that is my story. In a very big nutshell, I would say,

Zack Arnold

there's a whole lot of things that I want to dig a whole lot deeper into one of them that I want to get to a little bit later, is as somebody that's gone through multiple rebrands, and also somebody who represents artists, I definitely want to get to this idea of how do I create my own brand? And how do I sell my skills as valuable, especially given that people have so many different varied interests and experiences and the days of I learned one specialization and I started at the bottom of the company in the mailroom, and I slowly climbed the ladder, and I worked there for 30 years, and I retire. Those days do not exist anymore, almost anywhere, but specifically for artists. So I eventually want to get to this idea of how we better brand ourselves and tell our stories and say I am valuable, I understand your problems, and I want to solve them. But where I want to go back to first is another area that I think is so important for developing yourself as a creative and it's this continued theme of the value of the communities that you're in. And what you found, what I found is that the community where we were born and raised where the seed was planted well, there's only so much room for growth. And in my case, there was zero room for growth. my options were you graduate from high school, and you either take over the family farm, or you work road construction or you work in the woods. That was your future. That was pretty much it. And I knew that that was not the future for somebody that was interested in moviemaking and storytelling and being creative and hence had to surround myself with a different community. And you also had that same realization. But I want to talk about you both your experience but the experience of your artists and how valuable it is to not only say, I'm going to learn my craft, I'm going to learn my skills. And I'm going to network and get my resume out there and get jobs. But surrounding yourself with a peer group similar to, as you talked about in the East Village, that had a lot of ramifications for talking to this person in meeting this person getting this gig and getting that gig, who you surround yourself with is a peer group can completely change the trajectory of your career.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, and it's very often it's a lucky break, it's just kind of like, where you end up. I mean, I talked about this in a different podcast about like, how you have something come comes across to, you sort of receive a chance, and you take that chance, or you don't. And when I started thinking about this concept, for my, in my own life, I realized pretty much I could, I sort of all of a sudden saw that all of my choices have been like that, it's been presented to me, and I've either gone with it or gone away from it, and as all of us, but in my case, it has been very much. It's been very much influenced by taking chances. For instance, like meeting my husband, who is American, I was in New York for three days, and I walked into a bar listening to some using drink, drinking, you know, some drinks and, and I turned around, and there was a guy and I started talking to him. So it was just a feeling like, you know, this is something real I, I have to go towards this. And I think that it's it's a it's profoundly as affected my life profoundly, I ended up here, I am doing what I'm doing. I have a relationship, we're still married. I mean, it was incredible, just based on that turn, and decision to start talking to that person. So when I look at the I can sort of rack up my experiences and say, Yeah, that was like that. And this was like that. It pretty much everything I've done, including starting this agency has been because I felt something and it was right and I went towards it. Do you relate to that

Zack Arnold

Not only do I relate to it, it's completely deviating from everything I have in my notes. But I'm fascinated by this. And I want to go deeper. And there are two concepts here that I think are so important to illustrate. And I just want to go back and forth on this, the first of which is the power of listening to your intuition, which as a creative is so incredibly important to deciding the work that I want to do the stories that I want to tell, but also proximity, which again, is all about this idea of community, it, I think that it would be very easy. And let's say that this were either, you know, you met your soulmate, and you got married, or you started talking to somebody and they had a photography gig that led to this Job did lead to that job. Many people say, Oh, that's nice, you got lucky, that's never going to happen to me. But in my mind, that's very much a fixed mindset. And if we reverse engineer it, I think it's a combination of you listen to your intuition. But you're in proximity of the right kinds of people because you're in that bar, because you made the choice to say this is where my community is going to be. And I'm going to move here. So how do you feel about those two things as versus Oh, I guess you just got lucky and just happen to be the right person sitting next to you at that moment?

Kristina Snyder

Well see, that's the thing that I've realized, you know, I realized this, maybe I could say maybe only a few years ago, that that seemingly random act was not random. That was a deliberate choice. And it was exactly based on intuition. And I also, I also think that giving yourself credit for having intuition is something that has come to me of light. You know, I didn't really think that that was valuable. I didn't think that it had anything to do with building my company or my life, I thought it was just like, well, I just did it. I never saw the connection between the act itself and what I felt. And that I think is very important to know that it's very important to understand how your intuition, which is, when you think of it, it's your body, it's your body telling you got failing, etc. Your body is an instrument that can be fine tuned to receive those messages. So I don't think it's, well, you know, it's interesting, I have thought that it was luck. I thought, I've been so lucky in my life. But now I'm starting to see that I as a person as a physical body, and my mind had a lot to do with it. So yes, yeah.

Zack Arnold

And I agree with all of that. And just to unpack it even a little bit further. What I'm not saying is that this situation was 100% in your control, but at the same time, it wasn't 100% out of your control, ie You got lucky. I think that there has to be a nice blend of both and a major philosophy of all the actions that I take are is this something that I can control and if it is what are my actions knowing that there is just going to be some things left up to chance but I can reduce the amount of the luck factor and for you It was you had that intuition, you knew what you wanted, even though you didn't know that you knew yet. But again, just the I cannot emphasize enough how much I've learned, like you said, just over the last few years, how important it is to be surrounded by the right people that are doing the things that you're interested in, or that are doing the things now that you want to be doing next, because I and you can tell me what it's like in your world with the illustrators and the artists and the photographers. But I know in my world of people that are largely editors, writers, composers, it's very solitary. It's just me and my ideas, and my computer and a small dark room with four walls. And you feel like you're all by yourself. And to me, surrounding yourself with the right people is so important. Do you find that either you or your clients struggle with similar challenges, and they find the value in having you as an agent?

Kristina Snyder

Well, I definitely for the artists, for sure. Being an artist is a lonely pursuit, it is, as you said, your along with your pens and brushes, or whatever your computer in certain cases in a room. And that is a lonely pursuit, but but then you draw from from the outside world, you have to I mean, that's otherwise you would produce nothing. So even though you're lonely, I don't believe that people are artists, or we are really that lonely. There's, I believe in a higher, not a higher power. That sounds very weird in a way. But I do believe that we're connected to something that feeds us with creativity. And that power, or Well, some people call it the source energy, you know, that is something that you always carry with you. So you're not really alone, really, when you do art, but for my artists, I have some stuff. It's a very lonely thing. And it's always about ultimately do people like what I do. And so when you don't have work, when you don't have inquiries, when you don't get exposure, you can get a little bit skittish about that. And I know that because of my my past as a freelancer in New York, you know, I was a freelancer for 10 years. And if nobody calls or emails, it was like, they don't love me, I'm over. I'm done. I have

Zack Arnold

your identity, right? Like, what I do is who I am. So if I can't get work and get hired, and there isn't money coming in, there's something wrong with me. Yeah, it's not that it's a slow job market. Or maybe I wasn't the best fit. And I need to find the right people. It's there's something damaged about me.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, I'm not good enough. Nobody loves me. That's how I felt when I was a freelancer. And nobody called me and I didn't have work for a few weeks or a month. So is psychology wise, for the artists? I am sure that it's it's very challenging. It's really challenging at times. But I think what you have to do is sort of get on top of that, I mean, remedy it by getting on top of it and taking charge and saying it doesn't matter. I do it for me. I want to make money, of course, you know, but it's cyclical. Like everything else. Like in the in the TV, and movie business. Everything is cyclical that that's what we used to talk about when I worked in TV as well. It just it comes back, sometimes you're on top, sometimes you get tons of work, sometimes you don't. So our job is agents, you know, I work with a team of four other people and freelancers was also we our job is basically, you know, a little bit of psychology, a little bit of hand holding, but also a lot of development and encouragement and coming up with ideas and listening and kind of coming up with suggestions. So yeah, I, I feel very good working with a team now as opposed to when I started, and I was alone, I worked. I worked alone for a long time. And that was not it's not very creative. You need friction, you need something to sort of chafe against, if you know what I mean.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, absolutely. And I also think you need to have different you need different exposure to other mediums and people in conversations, that the things that you're working on, because I've had very much lived within a silo in certain parts of my career, where I'm doing this one thing, so I'm only exposing myself to this one medium or this one genre of a TV show or a movie. And it's a process that I call method editing, where I just really zone in on this one filmic language, which to a certain extent would allow me to specialize and get really good at that one craft. But then I later realized as I've started to to broaden my perspective, and especially when I moved away from being quote, unquote, just an editor, to being an entrepreneur and getting much more into athletics and documentary directing, and all these other things, my creativity really started to flourish, the more I exposed myself to totally different people, totally different conversations, different artistic mediums. And again, this came back to this intuition that my identity At the time, I am an editor, that's who I am. That's what I do is all that I do. It's all that I do to make a living and support my family. But something's telling me, there's more there. And I want to reach out and I want to try other things and other mediums or going back to this idea of an artist trying to find their voice. There's a really big barrier for the vast majority of creatives. And that's what if I fail? What if it's not good, and I know that you are just as passionate about talking about the concept of failure, and how vital it is to the creative process? So let's talk a little bit more about failure, what it means to be creative, why it's necessary, how we overcome it, this could easily be a three part series in and of itself.

Kristina Snyder

Yes, that's good. Let me talk about my spectacular failures. Well, I've had many, I mean, I wasn't joking when I said that I came to New York, and I had a boyfriend that wasn't like, I had nothing I had experience. I just sort of went for it. But but in a way, you know, things were simpler back then it was it was a little simpler, because my horizon wasn't very open. It was kind of like I want to get to here. And so it was limited, but failures. How can I talk about failures? Well, I've started several businesses that have not been great ideas and have not had I have not had like, really good partners. I started in 2002. From nothing, no experience, I just started put up a shingle and I was all of a sudden a photo agent. I had experience with bidding, and I knew pricing, and I knew photography. I knew good photography, and I knew some contacts. But there I was, like, you know, I was, I started my business a year after 911. And that was terrible, terrible timing. I thought I would fold but I didn't somehow I just didn't know what else to do, like I did. I couldn't I was unemployable. I think, because I've never really had a full time job. You know, I've never been on staff anywhere. I've just been freelancing. So that was a failure, then I opened a few other, you know, businesses that were kind of like, you know, what, this is not working. I think my trick for failure and being okay with failing is that you have to fail pretty fast. If it's not working, you kind of like, cut your losses, and you go, this is not working, I'm moving on, and then you forget about it, you don't think about it forever and ever, you just leave it go on to the next thing. So failing is a learning experience, it's incredibly valuable, to know what works and what doesn't work, and what is good for you and what's not good for you. So through the failures that I've had, you know, I have learned where my strengths lie, I'm a forward facing person in the agency, with talking to clients and talking to artists, but my best work is probably behind the scenes, you know, I'm not kind of what we say, and, you know, the cookie band stuff, again, a front woman, and natural frontwoman, although I'm starting to like it a lot. But I also think that maybe my skills from failing has been planning ahead, like seeing the bigger picture. So there's not just three steps, it's 10 steps ahead, seeing this can lead to this. And this can lead to that. And this is why I should do this. And maybe this would be good, just in case and you know, kind of it's almost like a chess game of trying to plan a business and and being an entrepreneur, and also having vibes sort of vibing what's happening out there, like what's trendy, what's happening, what do people like? And that's very much a part of it, too. But man, I mean, I could go on and on about failures, but that would be kind of boring.

Zack Arnold

I don't know, it'd be boring, because I think it's really valuable. And the first thing that I find hilarious is that you say I don't see myself so much as a frontwoman knowing that the name of your company is Schneider. So I find that hilarious. But I want to dig even deeper into the quote, unquote, failure. Because as you're going through and telling the story, you are continually saying, Well, this was a failure. And here's where I failed. But then as we went along, you started to reframe it. And this is for those that aren't familiar with the work of researcher, scientist and professor named Carol Dweck. There's this fundamental seminal book that I teach all my students about called mindset. And it's essentially an entire book about the difference between having a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. The fixed mindset is I am who I am. This is my intelligence. These are my skills. Whatever happens in my life is happening. To me, and I'm just here reacting, as opposed to the growth mindset is shifting your perspective. And like you said, when it's failure, well, that was just a learning experience. That was feedback. That was data. And I've been saying for years to people, that's the only real difference between you and I is not my level of innate skill or talent. It's my willingness to fail so much faster than you are, I will just dive in and fail relentlessly. Knowing that that's going to help me iterate and learn and grow faster. And we're I didn't even realize until fairly recently, where that came in. It was a memory I hadn't had for years until you were talking. But something that my father would say to me incessantly, when I was a child, I would do something stupid or something would go wrong. And he would just laugh. He's like, You know what, you just got there, don't you and like, what he's like, you just got yourself a very valuable education. So it was really framed as whatever stupid thing I did, or whatever happened to me. I can either say that happened, and I failed. Or I'm going to learn from it. And I'm going to iterate. But when it comes to speed, lawyer, you and I on the same page, because I've developed the skill of embracing how quickly can I fail?

Kristina Snyder

Yeah. Yeah, bouncing back. I bounced back really fast. I mean, I've had some experiences where I mean, 911 was a terrible blow. So it was 2008. Many other things, but I think I've actually developed a skill to just sort of bounce back so fast in my head that I'm almost like, you know, I'm almost there. The minute that happens, I had an experience like that, actually, when somebody was giving me some bad news about a venture that didn't work. And simultaneously in my brain, I rerouted everything, it was like, Okay, well, then I'm going to do this. And by the time I left that office, which was like five minutes later, I had a whole plan for how I would move ahead. It's I and I realized this just not very long ago, that was thinking, yeah.

Zack Arnold

Do you think that this is something that it just is who you are, and it's an innate talent? Or is it the kind of thing where you say, well, I bounce back quickly, let's say that you have a client that struggling with bouncing back? How would you advise them if they're like,Kristina, you just you always seem to bounce off a failure, and it doesn't bother you. And you're just in your head at that, at that moment, you figure out the strategy, I'm really struggling with failure, how can I bounce back quicker? How would you advise your client in that situation?

Kristina Snyder

I don't know, if a client would ask me that. Maybe I'm an artist, or an artist? Sure. Yeah, same thing. I would just say, Well, I actually spoke to an artist recently, where I advise that person to look at what you have, instead of trying to go somewhere where you're not really strong. So I would say, the advice would probably be cut your losses and try to neutralize, and see what you really have. Because you might have a beautiful thing over here that is very valuable, and something to build on. Whereas you're trying to be over here. And that's not working, you're bouncing against something and it's not really moving. So why not just like, put it down and see what you can do over here? I might, that's exactly what happened in my head that time, actually, that I was referring to. I was like, Okay, this goes down. And I'm looking at this. Now. Does that make sense?

Zack Arnold

Not only does it make sense, but I'm very excited for having this conversation. Because without you knowing it, you've basically dipped into the reservoirs of the foundational mindsets that I teach my students and one of the most foundational mindsets, is that you need to play a game of chess, instead of a game of checkers, which you're talking about already a strategizing thing in these larger moves. And one of my clients that I'm working with right now is a couple of levels below like a chess grandmaster. Like he's played chess for decades. And he's actually teaching me first of all the basics of chess, because ironically, the actual game I'm not very good at the mindset and strategy I'm good at. But one of the things that he explained to me is that when you get to this master or Grandmaster level, one of the biggest reasons that people lose a game is because they started with a plan. And then when the game shifts, instead of just looking at the board as it is, they're thinking, No, but but but this was the plan, and this was how I was going to win. And those that win the most, they see a brand new game after every single move, like alright, this is now the game that I'm playing, move, move, move. This is now the game that I'm playing, and they just release all those preconceived notions of where they should be.

Kristina Snyder

That's really interesting. You know, I have the privilege of being at a hockey game recently with a young man who plays hockey and is amazing. We went as a family with some friends and he was looking at the ice the hockey game like that. He was just looking at it as a chess. Me happens to be very good at chess too. So I understand that takes a certain brain to, I think to, to sort of understand that but that can definitely be a teach or taught, I think. Right?

Zack Arnold

Alright, so let's let's go even a little bit deeper into this concept of failure. And how it connects to this next idea that I know is important to you is how you can take specific opportunities and parlay them into other opportunities. Because I really believe that nowadays within this knowledge economy and creator economy, our careers are not going to be classical music anymore. It's not a theme and variation. Here's the structure. I know what's going to happen in four movements. We're playing jazz, and we are constantly having to change and I know that for you, this idea of being able to parlay is really, really important. So either give me a specific example of yourself or an artist, for example, where we can develop the skill not only of being okay with failure, but parlaying one opportunity into a multitude of other opportunities.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, I love that word, parlay. And I think about it all the time. I have in the past thought about it with my own career, because I started, I started at a low level, working somewhere where I got a chance to parlay my experience into the next and it's just continued, I've just parlayed all my life. And it's actually, the meaning behind parlay is betting. It's a betting term, which means like, you take your winnings and a bet, and you bet you bet that again, so comes from that. With my own life, I would say that, it's hard to discern, because I'm so enmeshed in it like, an example would be my first job in New York City, I worked at a an international photo agency as a photo researcher. And I had a very good relationship with a guy that used to call for images from Time magazine. And one day, he just asked me out of the blue, and I was kind of tired of working at this agency, he said, Would you Would you ever consider working as a researcher at Time Magazine? And I thought about it for three seconds. Oh, yeah. Why not? Yeah, I have no idea what the job was. But I could imagine that I could figure it out. So parlaying is somewhere between taking a risk and being okay with taking my risk, but also a little bit of something that sounds bad, like fake it to make it, but figure it out. And you will be okay. You can do that you can make that jump. And so that was a very specific, probably the first time that I did that. It didn't know what I said yes to, but it worked out. I worked there for a long time.

Zack Arnold

Now there's there's a couple of key things here that I want. I mean, this this all this is so fascinating, I knew that you and I were going to have an amazing conversation, which again, was intuition, because we get the email. I'm like, who's Christina Schneider, she works for an agency for artists doesn't seem like a good fit. But something says there's an interesting conversation here. And boy, was I right? So let's talk more about parlaying this idea of betting on yourself. And there's a strategy that I talk about with my students all the time, where I tell them and I'm so glad you said fake it till you make it because I hate that saying, especially in Hollywood, and creative industries, it lends to inauthenticity and not feeling like yourself and putting on a false front up which the entertainment industry is the best in the world at doing what I like to say it is that you face it until you make it and what I mean is you face the fear, you face the imposter syndrome. And if you look at it as well, am I ready to take this job? Am I ready to be a researcher for time? God no. But if I look at my character, am I the kind of person that's going to figure things out? And do I know enough to not fail my first week and ask the right questions and learn and iterate and be okay with failure? You're like, Yeah, I'm totally that person. And I can do it. And you got to face that fear until you make it. So I'm so glad you brought this up.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, I don't like that term, fake it to make it because it implies something like you said, it's false. It's not true. But I do I have thought about it. And parlay is probably a much better expression. I mean, another example that I just thought of is like I had a stint of about a year and a half working, doing set photography at HBO. So you know, set photography is like I was the assigning editor who asked the photographer to do set photography and bring it back and edited it and so on, so forth. So I had done a bunch of large shoots of very famous photographers, and I had seen that paperwork. I had to read the paperwork. I knew the line items, like Uh huh. This is like what the fee is for a portrait session. This is what they charge and so I memorize that and as I said, hung out my shingle as a as an agent saying, I can do this. I can. I can make it up. And it worked. I mean, I knew enough to to put it together and to sort of get it going and That's another parlay situation where I had a little bit of info, it did a lot of research. And then it sort of worked out in the end.

Zack Arnold

But at the end, at the end of the day, you had the confidence that I'm the kind of person that is going to figure this out and make it work as opposed to nope, couldn't do it. I don't know enough. I'm not ready. Right at the end. That's one of my pet peeves is people saying, I'm not ready yet. Like, you're never going to be right ever again. I've never ever, ever going to happen. So I always say you just you have to be prepared to not be prepared, as long as you're prepared to not be prepared. And you can dive in and fail and see it as a learning experience. Well, you can essentially learn just about anything.

Kristina Snyder

I also think that, you know, we're smarter than we think like, we can figure things out. There's information available, especially now look, you know, when I started, there was no Google, there was nothing, you just have to figure it out, ask people take meetings, you know, have coffee. So, you know, research. That's all it is. It's like if you're if you're a little bit intuitive and have some some drive, you can you can figure it out.

Zack Arnold

Yeah. And I would say that access to information and Google Now, chat, GPT, and all these other things, does not negate the need for personal relationships and building connections. And again, surround yourself with a peer group, surround yourself with experts. And when I say that, I mean, like, quote, unquote, experts, meaning these are people that have accomplished what I want to accomplish next, write to me, you can't just fill all your knowledge gaps with the Google search, you really have to understand how do people actually do it? How did this person that has the career that I want next? How do they overcome their obstacles?

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, that's interesting. I do remember having a lunch date with somebody when I had a brief interest in becoming a film editor. Because I thought film photography is related. This was before the agency days, or the agenting days. And I sat down with her and she said to me, her advice to me, Well, tell me what you think. Kristina? Film editors spend all their time in a dark room, and there is no people around, correct strike me. You strike me as somebody who's needs feedback and people and you're very personable. And do you really think you could live this life? So I listened to that I was like, huh, now maybe you're right. I still love editing. I do it for myself. But, you know, I It's probably it was probably a good advice. I think.

Zack Arnold

I think that it was excellent advice. And I think that what what it was tapping into, which is another area that I work on with my students all the time, is that it's not just about what is the craft, I really like using cameras, or I really like brushes. It's what is the lifestyle look like and is in alignment with your lifestyle needs. And I'm as introverted as they come. So for me the lifestyle of an editor completely and totally make sense, as it does for a lot of people that do it. However, the lesson I learned, it does not matter how introverted or creative you think you are, you still need those personal connections, and you still need to be around people. Because the science is so definitive and absolute at this point that the number one determinant of your quality of life and happiness and fulfillment, especially as you get closer to death is the quality of your relationships. It's not how much money you had, or the awards or the accolades. It's the people you surround yourself with. So given that you decided to start an agency and be surrounded by people all day long, I don't think you would have loved the life of a film editor.

Kristina Snyder

No, no. That's good. Listening, that's also very important,

Zack Arnold

So important. So where I'd like to transition to next. And I think that your industry is maybe slightly different than the way that it works in entertainment. But I still think it's a valuable conversation is understanding how an agency works, specifically how it serves artists and seeing the business from your perspective. And even though I'm not an agent in Hollywood, I've had an agent for years, I've talked to many of them. And essentially, the agent is there to help facilitate connections, get you an interview, and then negotiate your rate and protect you. But you would already mentioned this idea of having these conversations with your artists and really talking about next steps. And it sounds like you're offering also kind of quasi managing or coaching and not just hey, you get a gig or you get an interview, we're gonna negotiate your rate. So talk to me about what you do as an agency for your artists.

Kristina Snyder

So we are the agency is really like the the connection between an artist and a commercial job. So we work with advertising agencies, design agencies, publishing houses, editorial, you know, magazines and newspapers, and anything in between. I mean, we can work with a big company like Netflix, and we can work with a small mom and pops kind of cafe that needs a map zone. So instead of These people, the clients going out to search themselves for artists that that appeal to them for a certain job, they come to us and they ask us sometimes, do you have a suggestion, I'm looking for a map for a coffee company. And we as agents will then make suggestions and see if we can sort of match the style to the right job. Sometimes it's a matter of matching a category like are they do they want to do do they want CG do they want more a portrait or so is sort of a filtering process that happens when we talk to clients. So it's, it's it's a bit of a clearing house, because we have about 60 artists a little bit less actually. And so are a one of our jobs is to facilitate and be professional in the way that we help our clients to, to actually get what they want and look really good and make it easy for them. So when a job comes in, and it can actually be for a specific artists, like we saw so and so on your website, and we think that this would be great for our sausage brand, or whatever that I mean, you know, advertising is widespread, it can be anything can be like a farm a client, or, or, yeah, anything. And we know what that is, you see ads all the time, in print, on billboards, etc. So a request comes in, and we work actively to find the right artists, we listen to the client, we ask what a thought scope is, what the budget is, what the timeline is, what are the expectations of delivery? And and what are they looking for. So we listen to that, we take in the brief, and then we talk to our artists and we pitch a few or if they have somebody in mind that they liked. We work out the schedule, and we have a job it came in, it's this budget. And they want four pieces and you have four weeks to do it. Are you interested? And that's when the really interesting job happens for us as agents, because it's not just like, do you want this or not? If you do, here it is, it's more of a dialogue of like, we think that this would be a great opportunity for you because of ABMC, it can be parlayed into something bigger. If it's a small job with a little budget, it can be actually a really good thing. Because if you produce it, we have something to show to this bigger client. So you can get a bigger job with more money, etc. And more cachet. So it's very much a sort of, again, the music reference, I liken it to being on a board, you know, when you're mixing in a studio is kind of like fee, high, low visibility, or high visibility, low fee. And then there's some other levers as well, as well, that happens. But it's always like, keeping in mind what is best in the long run for the artist and for the agency as a result, you know, how can we build this artists presence and develop the skills further and further and elevate that person's brand. So sometimes we work with artists that are just pretty much like right out of school, you know, that's happened a few times, that have such great talent are so distinct, they're so amazing that we want to capture them and help them and sort of protect them, pave the way for them hold their hands and make sure that they don't get taken advantage of essentially, sometimes we sign artists that are very skilled that have been working for a long time gone to the best schools and already have fantastic clients, you know, in that case, it still is still the same method to elevate them to elevate their brand so that they can be more and more visible and and do better and better jobs. So it's very much about development, I think our agency is is unique in that way. Because some agencies just want to botch, they want to book they want to make money. We are interested in relationships, and thinking about the long game, you know, and and that's that's something that I can't tell you how it became like that. It just might my theory is that it reflects who the people are that work in the business?

Zack Arnold

Well, I would say that where it starts is the name of the company and how in alignment that is with you and your intuition. So I'm not nearly as surprised about the evolution of your agency in developing people and bringing all these different pieces together. Because that actually is one of the things that I found unique that I wanted to dig into deeper is that in general, an agency's job is to say, This person is looking for this specific square peg to fit in a square hole and it's our job to negotiate the maximum rate because our business model is we get 10% of their revenue, right? So without going too deep into the weeds, if we strip all the development In all the relationships out of it, is your core business model the same where Netflix comes to you, you get an artist, Netflix plays the artist and you get 10%? Or is there something else driving your revenue model, because the revenue model is then what drives your intentions for how you want to help certain parties.

Kristina Snyder

Now, the revenue model is exactly that. It's a commission based, you know, income for us. So we get a commission on every job that comes through. Sometimes there are no fees, you know, we, some of our artists do jobs for non pro bono, exactly, but for very low fees. And in those cases, we don't take a commission. But that is the revenue stream. That's, that's the only revenue stream that we have. And, you know, I think pretty much every agent in this business and illustration, and photography works the same way.

Zack Arnold

And it's very, very similar to any of the major agencies in Hollywood as well. But the unique part of this that really kind of threw me off is, given that the basic revenue stream of just about any agency is we're going to get X percent of commission of our artists, it's very uncommon to actually be interested in developing your talent. But if there's one thing that I want people to walk away with, from today's conversation, as from the artist side, not from the client side, but from the artist side, is that your revenue stream is based on you are the perfect fit for this job for this client. And that's going to be based on your past experience. But what if I am somebody that has decided, I've been doing 2d My entire career, now I want to get into 3d or I want to get into painting, I need to be able to take all of my past experiences, my past skills, and frame my story in such a way that I can still be valuable in that next realm. How can you advise somebody to be able to better tell their story as a creative such that it's not? Well, sorry, you don't do 2d, so you can't do it? And it's again, this idea of intuitively, you seem like the right fit? How can they better tell their story so they can get recommended or get considered for jobs? Where on paper? Maybe they don't have the credits? Are the experience necessary?

Kristina Snyder

Well, we have to have something to show. I mean, everything is built on like, well, what have you done before? You know, like, in Hollywood, it's, if you want to write a certain script, or get it produced you What have you done before? So I think in that case, and it's interesting that you bring this up, because we do have an artist that actually changed horses midstream in a way, and we're excited about it. So with him, we're willing to wait for him to build up his portfolio in this new style is veering away from his old style. Because he's really interesting and amazing and unique. And so we're willing to sit it out, like, Okay, well wait for you. We'll keep selling your old style meanwhile, and then we'll see if we can sell this to a client so you can get more pieces for your portfolio. I think that the idea that we're willing to wait and develop talent is that it's very a lot of fun. It's just more fun for us to do it that way. I mean, if you if you don't, I can see that you run the risk of becoming a booker, you kind of like you want a Okay, here you go. A you want to be okay, there you go. It's more interesting and more creative to be involved, as a creative in the process of trying to, you know, build somebody's career and develop somebody as an artist. That's where the juice comes for us. Because combined, the agency consists of people that have worked decades in the in the industry. And my experience is that there's two chances to work on a long game and to work as a creative with an artist. And in giving input, like from all of the experiences that we collectively have those, there's not very many chances at agencies to do that. So I think it's just, it's just a more fun way to work.

Zack Arnold

I couldn't agree more. But I also think you're a bit of a unicorn, at least from my own personal experience from the experience of many others where I do and again, I don't want this to be a hyperbolic blanket statement. But I think more often than not, especially for looking at the bigger Hollywood centric agencies, it's very much you need a square peg, here are square pegs. Oh, you're looking for a round peg here, all the best round pegs. Wait, you're a square peg, but you want to be a round peg. I don't know. I think you're better off just you stay as a square peg as we can get you work right away. That's a big area where a lot of the people in my community get stuck. And let's assume for the moment that you're not nearly as interested in developing somebody's talent and you don't want to play the chess game and it's more about we need to get the quickest and most and most consistent revenue stream possible from our clients. I'm a square peg. I want to be around peg, you said you have to have something to show what other advice would you give to me? If I know for a fact I'm done being honest Were a pagan I want to be around peg, how can I make that happen?

Kristina Snyder

I would say, Just do it. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It's just if you feel that strongly about it, if you really want to be a film editor, and before that you were an actor, you should just dive in, make it happen. You know, that's the best advice I can come up with. I have done it. I wanted to be an agent, you know, I had no experience, and I was a square hole and a square. You know, it was that, but I just made it happen by breaking and just like committing completely to a new career. So, yeah, that is not a very good answer. I

Zack Arnold

No. I think that that's actually that's actually a really good answer. But it scares people because it means Oh, I just actually need to go out and do the work. And it's not Oh, that secret sauce that I never heard of. But now let me ask you this last question. Just because very rarely do I get to talk to agents at your level to really dig into their brain. Let's say that I am your artist, you represent me. And I've been a very successful square peg for a long time. And now I definitely want to be a circle peg. But I'm terrified to tell you that because I think you're going to drop me because I'm not going to generate enough immediate revenue for you. Should I be scared that if I want to become a circular peg, you're no longer going to care about me. And I should just keep taking the square peg jobs.

Kristina Snyder

As your agent, I would always advise you to not keeping doing the square peg jobs, because the theory is if you're if your heart is in it, and you love it, it's going to be good. I mean, it's going to be successful, because you have passion for it. So I would never advise anybody to stay as a round peg. No, no, that would not be okay. But it might mean that yeah, maybe you continue to do your day job as a square peg. And then at night, you do your round peg stuff. And then we can switch and see if it works.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, there's a transition period, you have to there's going to be a period where you are taking some of the paycheck jobs, doing some of the square pegs while you're developing your skills and building your reputation as the round peg. And I think that there's there's just this misconception that I'm just gonna flip the switch, and I'm gonna go from one to the other. And it's a spectrum and it sometimes takes years, but people just want it to happen overnight. Now, but I'm very happy to hear from an agent's perspective. Yeah, this is something I would encourage and develop.

Kristina Snyder

Yeah, right. Right. We all have to eat we do money, jobs, bread and butter jobs, too. And we do them because maybe there'll be an incredible job for no pay that you want to do next. So it's sort of Yeah, but it's it, you should never be afraid of working hard. I mean, that's, that's what everything is based on. You've worked hard. I've worked hard, everybody has to work hard. It's just the way it is.

Zack Arnold

I don't think I could not wrap it up any better than that. Unfortunately, our time has run out. And I can easily do this for a double or more the amount of time that we have. But I want to be very

Kristina Snyder

Amazing. And I didn't believe you before, but like an hour flew by

Zack Arnold

I told you it was just going to disappear. So we might have to reschedule a part two to this. But in the meantime, yeah. And I think we may do that. But in the meantime, I want to thank you very much for your time and make sure that for those that are interested in learning more about you and your work and potentially connecting where's the best place to send people?

Kristina Snyder

Well, our website is we are Snyder S N Y D E R.com. My Instagram is aka underscore Kristina Snyder, and Kristina is spelled with a K. And just check it out there. I'm on LinkedIn as well. But our home page is our website is the best way to check out the artists and all my contact info is there as well. So come on over.

Zack Arnold

I love it. Well, I'm going to make sure that all of those are linked in the show notes. Anybody can go to optimizeyourself.me/podcast They can subscribe. They can find the link to your episode get all these resources. But as much as it saddens me to say it. It's been fun and I appreciate the time but unfortunately we are at We're done for now. But so, so thankful that we had this conversation and I'm pretty confident I'm reaching out we're scheduling a part two, so

Kristina Snyder

Great.

Zack Arnold

Thank you so much.

Kristina Snyder

Ok, thank you. Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai