Ep185: | Building a Fulfilling Career Across Multiple Mediums (Without Getting Pigeonholed) | with Stephanie Filo, ACE

Zack Arnold

My guest today is Stephanie Filo, who is a two-time Emmy and Peabody award winning TV and film editor who's based in both Los Angeles and Sierra Leone, West Africa. She earned an Emmy win for unscripted editing on the Mental State episode Separated, making herself and Nzinga Blake, the first Sierra Leonean women to ever win an Emmy Award. And most recently, she won a Primetime Emmy for her work on HBO's A Black Lady Sketch Show, making her team the first all-women of color editing team to take on the award for outstanding picture editing for a variety programming. Now this is just literally a tiny, tiny smattering of the credits and accolades which Stephanie has earned in a very young career, which doesn't even begin to cover her social activism work in the documentary space. So in short, if you've ever wondered if it is actually possible to successfully build a fulfilling creative career, jumping between multiple mediums and genres, whether it's from scripted, to unscripted or to documentaries or beyond, then trust me, Stephanie Filo's story is for you. In this conversation, Stephanie shares how she has climbed to award winning levels of both scripted and unscripted television despite a lot of the barriers that unfortunately come with being a black woman in a white male dominated industry. She candidly opens up about how she has had to work harder to prove herself, but also her own challenges around work life balance, and the sacrifices she's made getting to this level in her career. This is a wide ranging conversation that should appeal to anybody looking to make a career transition, find purpose and fulfillment in life, and ultimately, anybody who wants better strategies for choosing the right projects to match both your lifestyle needs and your creative needs. So without further ado, my conversation with editor and activist Stephanie Filo. To access the shownotes for this episode with all the bonus links and resources discussed today, as well as to subscribe, leave a review and more simply visit optimizeyourself.me/episode 185. I am here today with Stephanie Filo, who is a multiple award nominated and winning TV and film editor based in Los Angeles, California and Sierra Leone, West Africa. And some of your notable recent projects include A Black Lady Sketch Show for which you did win win the Emmy last season for Life and Supervillain: The making of Takashi 6 9. However, it's also important to note beyond just the quote unquote Hollywood credits, even though you didn't put it in your bio intro, I'm going to do it for you, because I think it's a really important part of this conversation is that you've worked on a lot of campaigns in the documentary, unscripted space in the world of activism you've worked for on projects for the United Nations, the International Labor Organization, and even for the It's On Us campaign for the Obama White House Task Force. First of all, Stephanie, I want to thank you for being here. And secondly, if I had to go on your website, and I was forced to list all of the credits on both your unscripted and your scripted resume, and all the things you've done in activism, there would be no show. Because at the intro, I would say it's been great having you here, because there are so many things you've done and accomplished, I'm in awe of what you have. So thank you for being here.

Stephanie Filo

Thank you so much.

Zack Arnold

I have to admit, if I were to look at your resume cold without knowing you, my immediate assumption is you've got to be like 65 years old, because there's so much stuff on your resume. And as we talked a little bit about briefly before the call, I'm not terribly interested in talking about the creative side of A Black Lady Sketch Show anybody listening to this and wants to hear about that you've talked about it a lot. It is all over the internet on different sites, podcast, we'll make sure to put some links in the show notes so people can listen to that stuff. I want to know a lot more about who you are as a person, the choices that you've made, the struggles that you have endured. And I want to just learn a little bit more about the the mindset that it takes to persevere and build the level of resume that you have, just in general, but also at your age, I would imagine you can't be you know, like pushing 50 60 70. And on paper, you have done a lot in a very short period of time. So I guess the the place to start is where does your journey start? Where do you want to start your story and telling it because there are a lot of different places. And I want to know where you want to start the story?

Stephanie Filo

Well, for me, I mean, speaking of like any of my social impact stuff, my dad is a human rights attorney. Like I grew up around around activism and around just like learning about different world fuzzes he would travel somewhere work on a project and I would like hear about all of these different different things happening around the world. And I think it's kind of just activism was always just kind of like built into my just who I am as a person. And so from early on, I've always kind of like worked on social impact projects and campaigns and that's probably why, you know, my resume might might be a bit more like old and one might expect but it's something that I will He's kind of done. It's something I've always done on the side while also working. So it's like having two kind of lives at the same time. But yeah, I think that's kind of where where that side of things started. And then on the normal TV side of things, I saw the movie Seven when I was a kid, and fell in love with the opening title sequence. I don't know.

Zack Arnold

Oh my God, me too, right. Nobody ever talks about the opening titles. They talked about all that said, Yes, me too. I almost started working for Imaginary Forces, because of that opening title sequence.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, it's so good. And like, I was just baffled that you could like tell a whole story visually, without any dialogue or anything. It's like, you're just looking at these images, but you're learning so much about the movie. So I kind of just like started trying to, like recreate that with my home movie camera, and just like, kind of just evolved into editing, even though I didn't know what that was, at the time. And yeah, moved out to LA and like this hustle to try to find any job that I could. And I landed at like a night assistant editing position, and just worked my way up from there.

Zack Arnold

Well, I'm sure there are a lot of little tiny nooks and crannies and pieces in there that in and of themselves can become an entire episode. The piece that I'm rather interested in as it relates to both the activism and some of the the choices that you made, as far as projects that you want to work on, is that you call yourself first generation. And you actually won an Emmy for a news documentary piece about ice deportations. So talk a little bit more about your story of being a first generation what that means to you. And how's that? How that factors into? I'm just going to move to LA and I'm just going to work in Hollywood.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, I think, um, well, so I lived in Sierra Leone when I was a kid, and we moved to Colorado, which is the polar opposite of Sierra Leone. So I think from, you know, an early age, I was like, I'm a first gen like, there's no question about it, like, I live with my African, like parents, like my dad, who is very, very African in this very, like, not African society. So I think I just, it's always kind of informed who I am as a person, the way that, you know, I've seen him be treated over the years, in just sort of a different, like, very white Colorado is a very, very white place, if you've ever been, it's not the most diverse, but there were just a lot of struggles as far as that goes. Growing up and just feeling like not part of the society around us. So I think just, you know, he always stressed how important it was to, to just stay true to who we were. And like this is, this is like, in our hearts, what we what we are, we're Sierra Leoneans. And to not kind of shun that away, even though for like, years, I kind of tried to because I was just like I want to try to fit in. So I think it just, you know, after like really taking that to heart, it just is something that's always been super important to when we made that documentary in particular about ice deportations. It's basically about a family that has been separated, but that has been sent back to Mexico for like, almost a decade. And so it's kind of just following like the kids who have been separated from their, their dad for this long stretch of time, and just seeing what that kind of does to a family. And, you know, it's these are also first gen kids and like, I just think of what my life would have been like, if that had ever happened to us, you know, and yeah, it's just I think, yeah, being first gen. Sorry. I don't know if that answers the question.

Zack Arnold

No, not only does it answer it, it's gonna it's gonna take us in a really interesting direction. But one of the things that I want to go a little bit deeper on is just a clarification that obviously, you've never been in a situation where you're dealing with deportations, but there's still I would assume a deeper level of empathy for what these people are going through, because you can understand what that would feel like, because you're one step away from that could literally be your reality. Yes, definitely. Yes. So here's the reason I think that's important. This is not something I was even planning on getting to for like an hour, but let's just do it. Now. You were in a piece like a behind the scenes piece with the showrunner, creator of black lady sketch show, which I never said, I never said we wouldn't talk about it, just not the creative side of the show itself. But it was your showrunner and the three editors, all of whom are black and female, and talked about the idea that we just don't think that white males would be able to cut the show the same way. And I want to go deeper into this idea, because I think that what I've seen a lot recently in our culture, in a lot of its behind the scenes is backlash from white males saying, I can't get any jobs anymore. Because of this stupid diversity stuff. I've got all this experience. I'm so good at what I do. And most importantly, I'm an editor and a storyteller. It shouldn't matter. So having said all that, I want to go back to this documentary piece about these ice deportations called separated. Why is it that you and I'm not challenging you? I want to really dig into this deeper. Why is it that you can do a better job cutting it than I can when I know the same tools, the same storytelling techniques I'm very Are you good with music? And transitions and everything else? Why does that make you better at that than me?

Stephanie Filo

I think there's like a level of nuance that people don't always think about when they think about cutting stories together. So going back to being first gen, I think there's certain things that maybe it's a nuanced expression, then I'm like, Oh, this means something very specific that maybe like a white male counterpart, wouldn't pick up on, but it adds so much to the story, because you know, that this means this thing, I think there's value in in having that sort of nuanced perspective, and just being able to like, maybe see the story from a different lens. Because there's, there's a very specific lens, but I think we've we've all seen that type of a story presented with. So it's an opportunity to kind of like, look at it from maybe a different, a different lens, and be able to show people, the world from that lens, you know, it's if it's just about authenticity, and, you know, just trying to make sure that the stories we're telling aren't being more harmful than helpful.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, to me, it's it goes to the heart of the things you're talking about, which is a level of authenticity and nuance. Because when you get to a certain level in any industry and talking about our industry, you get to a certain point, working on HBO shows, for example, there's a whole handful of people all of whom are more than capable and have all the skills and all the experience to do a great job on that show. Great job. But as we know, what we do for a living is we make choices 1000s and 1000s. of little tiny frame by frame choices. And your diverse background and your ability to relate and empathize with these characters, I believe allows you to make better and more specific and more nuanced choices than I could, even though I consider myself very good at what I do. Would you agree with that?

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because it's, you know, it's not saying that people are not good storytellers. I think that all of us, you know, anyone who's, who's cutting, like an HBO show, or any, you know, TV show is at a certain experience level, but it is just a matter of like, being able to make those choices, but make them in a way that feels authentic to what you're trying to say, you know, if if there's like, say, a sketch about hair products, right, which there is, you know, I think that I might have more perspective on that than like a white male counterpart who has not used black hair product,

Zack Arnold

what are you saying about my hair? Are you are you disparaging my hair, which is so flowing? And second, you know, just amazing.

Stephanie Filo

No, I'm just saying like,

Zack Arnold

I really hope people are watching the video version, because the audio version won't do that joke justice.

Stephanie Filo

No, I think that you probably haven't used like Carol's Daughter, for example, I have not. But there's a very specific joke about that. So it's like, I think there's more nuance maybe and in telling specific stories, where it becomes helpful to have

Zack Arnold

right and what's interesting from my perspective, and I'm gonna do my best to not get too deep into storytelling, because we're here to hear your story. But I think that me sharing both of these briefly, I think these are things you can possibly relate to, and shed light on just both for me personally, but for audiences Well, why this diversity conversation is so important, and it's not about we need the token diversity hire, there's actual tremendous genuine value to making these decisions. Even if somebody has less experience, that diverse perspective has a lot of value. I have been on two projects in my career that made absolutely no sense. Other than I was more than capable, and I knew the right people at the right time. One of which is very high profile is that I was on the first season of empire. The other which is my very first breakout feature film that was an indie film that was acquired by Fox Searchlight was called fat girls, Monique film. And I spent over a year working on that film with a black female director of which it was a very, very personal story. And Empire was like the longest year of my life, it was a great and interesting experience. But there's a lot happened on that show. And it's very high profile, lots of politics, none of which I'm gonna get into, you know, none of that I don't want to bed to be that kind of a show. The point being that rather than just kind of filtering in my feelings about this conversation, I've been in the position of being the white male qualified editor that realizes I should not be the person that's telling the story. I'm great at what I do, I cut a really great scene and a good montage. And if you give me a sense of the story that you want to tell, I can deliver it. But when it came to the nuances, I really started to feel out of my element, when certain conversations come up with there literally was a conversation about black female hair products when we were working on factorials, and a whole litany of different things about slang terms and cultural things during the first season of empire. And I realized I don't think I'm the best fit to be doing this. I've got the talent to do it all. I think the shows that I worked on came out great, very proud of that work. But I realized firsthand, and I felt that level of discomfort that there's somebody that can do this better, because I just don't have the life experience to make some of these choices and make better choices.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, definitely. I think the thing too, is like what you were saying earlier, there's a bunch of like white male editors who maybe are annoying that there aren't opportunities or jobs

Zack Arnold

annoyed as a way to put it very kindly. But go on,

Stephanie Filo

Yes. And the way that they can't find work or that there's less maybe jobs available to them, but I don't think I don't think that's a way to look at it, it's more a matter of like diversifying the amount of people within the space, you know, it's not taking a job away to give somebody else an opportunity. You know, it's, there's plenty of jobs to go around. And I think, you know, having a having an editing team that's like a variety of people is valuable to everybody, you learn more being around people who are different. And yeah, it's an interesting like conversation, the way that it's kind of come up, because if you recall, there was like that thread a few years ago, that was like, within a Facebook, you know, I need an editor,

Zack Arnold

I have an entire podcast all about this thread. And I will make sure to link to it in the show notes. But just for those that may not remember, give us like the one minute pitch for that post and everything that transpired after it.

Stephanie Filo

So basically, there was a post in this group on Facebook, I need an editor, and it was just looking, it was like, Are there any black union editors in this group? That was just the question, right? It wasn't, I want I have to only hire a black union editor, nothing. It was literally just like, do they exist? Right? It was a simple, simple question, because there just aren't enough of us. So all of the like, not all of them. But a lot of the white men in that group, just sort of like, there's a ton of backlash. And they're like, this is not legal, because it's, you know, your app, you're hiring only black editors, blah, blah, blah. And it that thread went viral on Twitter. And as a result, a bunch of different sort of lists of diverse candidates for jobs started, circulating and like being created and just this bigger conversation happened surrounding it,

Zack Arnold

that's a very kind way of putting it I like how you're taking all of these things and making them and telling them in a very kind way, because it can get a lot uglier than that. And when I talked about it, shortly after it came out, I was definitely more bold about just my distaste and Frank outright hatred for a lot of the things that were said. But yeah, that the immediate gut reaction was as if it assumed the post had been written as follows. I am seeking an editor for this project, I will only consider black union editors, I will not consider anybody else outside that race. If you are white, and male, you are not qualified to apply for this project, click here to apply. That was how they were writing comments, because that would have been out of line. Right? I wouldn't agree with the posts like that. That was how they responded, as opposed to what was actually there. Which is, raise your hand if you're a black union editor, right? I can imagine being in front of a group of two or 300 people and saying, How many of you in here are black union editors? When I get a ton of backlash for that? No, it's a poll question. Right, and not the way that it was taken. Which if we were gonna give it a little bit more context, I don't remember exactly. But wasn't it roughly right after the whole Black Lives Matter movement started to explode if I remember correctly. Like right around that time,

Stephanie Filo

it was like around the George Floyd protests. So like, mid 2020, or something,

Zack Arnold

Needless to say things were very volatile. Not that they're, I wish I could say things if really settled down in the last couple of years, haven't they? And they certainly haven't. But it was certainly very, very volatile then. But what I'd like to go is a little bit deeper into your own personal story when it comes to people making assumptions about you, as only or just a black female editor. So I know that you've got at least one if not more stories about trying to get hired on projects where you certainly felt like, you've got to put in a lot more effort and prove yourself a lot more to get the same kind of job against people the same level of experience. So let's talk a little bit more about those realities.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, definitely. I think, well, that thread is a good segue into it, because I think a lot of people were shocked at some of the reactions there. And I think all the black editors in that group, were not shocked at all, because we've kind of faced this, I think over the years and, you know, a lot of times, especially as like a black female editor, you're not taken seriously. You know, you're not always, you know, people look at you, and they're like, Oh, she doesn't know what she's doing. She's just here, you know, it's just a diversity hire. It's just whatever, um, you know, like one of my first projects that I ever caught on, I won't say what it's called, but it was there were like five older white male editors. Yeah, I think five older male editor's, but basically, one of them said to me, like, oh, a black woman could never cut this show. Right? And I'm like, I don't know what that means. Why? Like, what, why? You know, so it basically was just like a season of me trying to prove myself to all of these editors and eventually at the end, for whatever reason, they were all let go. And I was the only one that was left on the project. And I like finished out that whole season. So I was like, I guess I guess a black woman can cut this show, but

Zack Arnold

I think what he meant to say is only a black woman editor will survive this show. Maybe he just got it wrong. He got the wrong memo.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, yeah, semantics. But yeah, but yeah, it's, you know, stuff like that there's constantly like weird comments like that, or little microaggressions like that, where it's like, you're just there to try to do your job and you're not, you know, not looked at as someone who can do it necessarily, you know, as I say, I've had a lot of like interviews, especially recently, where it's like, you'll do the interview, the interview is great, you get along really well with the people. And then they like I've had, I had one in particular that reached out to like, the newest 15 contacts of mine, that I've worked with over the past, like five years, like they reached out to every producer, every post producer, every they reached out to my cousin because we work on something together, they reached out to like, a, an old boss that I had in like, 2008, just to ask if I like know how to edit if I'm like, missing it editing, right? Which in itself is just insulting, because it's like, I have a resume that shows that I know how to edit, right? Like, I've been doing this for a very long time. It's not like it's something that's new for me, you know, and I found out that the other editors on that project did not have all their context called, you know, they did not, did not have to, like prove themselves in every possible way. You know, there's also ones where it's like, oh, we would like to see a copy of like, this, this project that you worked on, that's not out yet. And the only way we'll consider you is if you like, show that, you know, send all of these sorts of like clips of things that we shouldn't be sending. And, yeah, just there's just a lot of sort of, like hoops, that I feel like you have to jump through as like a black editor Even now, after this whole dialogue has happened. You know, it's something that I think is still kind of plaguing this industry in a way. And it's not even I don't think it's like in an intentional way. It's just something that's sort of like drummed into people's minds. Maybe it's like a stereotype or just, I don't know, but it's definitely frustrating. I've talked to other people as well recently, who said, like, they'll get to like a certain stage of the interview process, and then won't get hired. But someone else will just so that, like the studio can say they talked to diverse candidates, you know, so it's like, even though it's part of the conversation, I think, people are still looking at it as like an optics thing, right? Where it's just like, we have this person, not necessarily caring about their perspectives or their nuance, like we were talking about, but they might bring to a project. It's more just like, here we have at least one, you know, so it's so it's a work in progress. I mean, I think it's slowly getting there. But I think when studios start to understand, like, why it's important to have us not that, you know, for visibility sake, they should have us, but the fact that we can actually bring things to projects, I think that's what,

Zack Arnold

and that's one of the reasons I wanted to be able to have this kind of conversation on the record is that it's not about well, this is a burden. But we now have to do it, you know, because of politics. Alright, so let's just do the thing versus Wait, you mean, this is actually going to make our projects even better? Well, then why wouldn't we do it? I think that's, that's the component that maybe just hasn't sunk in yet. It became it started with and you would be able to speak to this a lot more than I would. But from my perspective, just general, outside perspective, is it started with Yeah, well, you know, we don't really need diversity. Like, you know, white guys been doing this for decades. We got it all figured out. All right, I know we should be doing this. But there's just not enough time. And frankly, all the best candidates are just white males. I'm sorry. Those are just the people that are coming on to my desk. There's nothing I can do about it, too. All right, fine. interview the candidates, we have to meet our diversity, interviewing quotas. And there are going to be a few quote unquote, token hires. I feel like we've at least made it that far. And maybe we're starting to edge towards maybe there's actually value in this, and I just never saw it before. I don't think that that's stuck yet. But I think conversations like this are helping to move us closer to that part of this never ending spectrum. Would you agree with that?

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, definitely. And I think I mean, I've been lucky enough, like the past few projects I've worked on, I feel like I've been lucky enough to have EPs who understand like the value and importance of these kinds of conversations and why it's important to have us. So it is I do feel like change is happening. It's just maybe slower than it should be getting there. Yeah, we'll see kind of, I think in the years in the coming years, it's been weird, because it's also like we've been in COVID. Right. So everyone's been working remotely. And a lot of this has been not not in person. So I would be curious to see what what this landscape looks like when people are back like physically in an office.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, one one story that I've heard told more than once, from people that would consider themselves a minority is when they're applying for a job. And they get a really amazing reaction. And this kind of goes along this idea of things being remote, especially when you have a ubiquitous name like Stephanie, and they don't realize that you're black. And when you show up for the meeting, you can just tell it's hitting them for the first time. Have you ever had that experience? Because I've heard this multiple times. Now, clearly, I've never had this problem. But it sounds like this is not like a one off thing. It sounds like this is this is a lot of people's experiences.

Stephanie Filo

I'm trying to think back I haven't recently. Yeah, pre COVID. I think I hit a couple of those where it's just kind of like, oh, shoot, Oh, we did not realize Cool. Cool, I guess that's a plus. But like, again, with the reaching out to somebody contacts and making sure you know what you're doing. situation was still there. But But yeah, I have had that happen a couple of times in the past, for better or worse?

Zack Arnold

Well, what I can say unequivocally is that in doing the research to get ready for this interview, of course, one of the things I did was I went through your website, and found not just your resume, but your resumes, which we're going to talk more about, because that's one of the top strategies that I use with my students in my coaching program, is you don't have a resume, you tell a specific story on your resume to the right people based on what brings the most value to them. And my only reaction was, man, I wish I had something that I could hire you for? Because there's so I'm just like, What do I know of anything or like, there's got to be some way something I can make up. So I can hire you. Because Wow. And there was no thought about? Well, because you're black, or despite the fact that it's just none of that even factors into the equation. It's just like, holy crap, what a diverse amount of things you have done, that are all of which making a positive impact on the world. But I wanted to frame all of that with all the things you've had to go through, just to break into an industry and be successful in an industry despite all of the things that have to do with racial injustice, and people making assumptions about you based on your skin color. But let's just face it, you take all of that out of the equation, building the diverse resume that you have, as anybody is nearly impossible. everybody complains all the time. And I know because I built an entire business model out of helping people solve this problem. I am pigeonholed. People think I can only do one thing. And I don't want to do this one thing anymore. So we can dig into a lot of the nuances. But in general, if I only had two minutes with you, and you're up on a panel, and there's 150 people behind me, the one asked the same question. And I said you how do you have such a diverse resume? What's kind of your stock answer?

Stephanie Filo

Well, early on. So I worked for like a few years when I first was starting out on True Crime documentaries. And it like occurred to me that I was only getting asked to work on True Crime documentaries, right? Like no matter how much I tried, that was it like my, like, my contacts were when we shoot crime. And I realized, like, this is what I'm going to be stuck doing forever, if I don't try to at least change it up a little bit. So I think from early on, I just kind of tried to make this effort to, to no matter what the project is, like, do something that's a little bit different than next time. It can even be it could be the same genre, but something that's like, doesn't feel like the exact same as the last thing, right? So in unscripted it's like from true crime to like, here's like a docu soap or here's like a serious documentary. You know, just kind of jumping around there. But then also in scripted, like, I worked on, say, black lady sketch show, and then I'm like, you know, I want to change it up, is there a drama that I can find and work on and it might be harder to find harder to find that because people do categorize you like, Oh, it's a comedy editor, or it's a drama editor. But I think just holding out and like waiting for the right thing does help a lot in that, in that sense. So that's kind of just the formula. I think I've gone by for several years, and also just doing stuff on the side, which is not always the most healthy and like not the best time wise and keeping keeping mentally sane as an option, but it's something that I think helped me to at least diversified enough to where I was able to have like, here's a resume that has different scripted projects I've worked on, here's one that had some unscripted projects I've worked on like, just keep them separate, but like, they're, they're diverse enough that that hopefully, it can you just shoot me, bouncing back and forth. And as an actor, as an editor to I feel like it helps to have experience in all these different different genres. Because it's just like a bunch of different toolkits, right that you can take to the next project. Even if it's a totally different genre. You're like, Oh, I could use like a comedy technique here and it might actually feel like horror, or it might feel like, I don't know,

Zack Arnold

well, all of that sounds great, but none of that's gonna work for me because I have Been working in true crime forever and have so many credits? And all that sounds fantastic. And it's a great two minute advice. How do I actually do it? So let's dig in. You right now are currently a true crime editor. And it's all you've been working on our true crime documentaries, and I have at least a dozen names and faces in my head of people that have come to me with this exact problem. I've been doing true crime for years, I cannot get out of it. It's the only jobs that will pay the bills. Let's workshop this for a few minutes. What's the first step that somebody should take if the only work they're getting is work that they don't want to be getting any more? All the things you said kind of the general advice, let's start getting really specific. What's the first step to getting out of that hole and moving towards something else that you want to do?

Stephanie Filo

I think the first thing that I did was I looked at my resume, and I found the projects that were not true crime, right, and I bumped those up higher. So I'm like, Okay, now people can see I've done not only to prime, I've done other things.

Zack Arnold

In a second hold on a second, you're not allowed to do that you can't change the order of things on a resume, isn't my resume just supposed to be a chronological listing in reverse chronological order of everything I've ever done in my entire life, wait what? It's not?

Stephanie Filo

especially for what we do, I mean, a lot of jobs are like, they just want to see that you have a certain type of experience, right? So a lot of times for work, I'll like tailor something where I'm like, I know that I'm going out for like a dramatic project, I'm going to put the last drama like up where they can see it because people don't always I mean, as much as I'd love them to read my whole resume, they aren't going to you know, people are busy, they have hundreds of resumes. So it's like, they need to just see that you have that one thing that would like that would be a fit for their project. So I think that was the first thing I did was I tried to just kind of like shift, shift stuff around a little bit and like, try to make it look like I had done other types of things. Because I had, it's just that I hadn't done it in a while, right. And then from there, I started reaching out to pretty much everyone I knew any contact I have and saying like, you know, this is what these are, what my intentions are, right? It's not that I don't like working in this style. But I would like to branch out and do this, if you hear of anything, you know, I would love to be considered or I would love if you would pass on my info. So it was a matter of like kind of reconnecting with a lot of contexts that I hadn't maybe talked to in a little while, just to check in. But also to say like, you know, I'm trying to kind of shift it up a little bit, a lot of times, other contexts are also trying to do the same thing. So it's like you're kind of on this journey together. So it's a it's a good way to kind of reconnect with people.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, one of the things that I want to mention in there that I think is so key that I also advise my students to do is that when you're making a major transition, don't dump all over your past experience than working at your craft forever. And I'm totally stock and I just anything you hear of that's not true crime would be awesome. Like, you don't need to do that. I think the way that you put it is perfect. This has been great. I've really enjoyed my experience doing this. I'm ready for a new and different challenge. I love to work more on these things. People dislike that positive energy more, because they can just sense well, if you're going to be negative about this now, you're probably going to be negative about this new thing in six months to a year. I don't want that kind of energy. Right. Right. So I think that's it's a great way to put it that Yeah, I did this thing. It's great. I want to do something else. Next, how were you able to convince people that you had the transferable skills, even if on paper, you didn't have the experience?

Stephanie Filo

I think this is something that in my transition, sort of from unscripted to scripted, I think helped a lot and in where I would basically just say, like, you know, unscripted, you have 1000s of hours of footage, you're creating moments that maybe aren't there, you're making someone funny, who's not funny, right? You're, you're maybe creating a dramatic moment that was not supposed to be dramatic, you're poring over all these hours of footage. And if you're able to do that with like an unscripted content, then imagine what you can do with something that was shot intentionally and like not nearly as much footage, but you have the ability to do those like things to manipulate a story and make it really full. I guess, me, I think that's something that kind of helped in interviews, trying to kind of make that jump and, like, try out different different things within the script and vein when I had, like primarily done on scripted, and I think it kind of that translates as well to like, you know, from True Crime into something else. You know, I think true crime is one of the harder forms of doc that you can cut because a lot of times the footage you don't have it, right. It's like you have maybe archival stuff, or you have interviews that don't tell you everything you need to know. So you're kind of piecing together story a lot. So I think just by having the abilities storytelling a bit IDs from that specific genre are valuable in every other genre. So I kind of would really just try to emphasize, I have a strong sense of story just from working in that alone. So I can definitely prove that prove myself within this other genre, if you're willing to let me, you know, give it a shot.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, it's a great way to alleviate some of the fears and concerns that a potential showrunners studio executive director, etc, might have. Because at the end of the day, you have to remember they need to be risk averse, they have millions of dollars on the line, and they don't want to be the one that takes a chance on somebody that isn't right on paper. And it's a total of complete failure, because that's on them. So it's your job to overcome that burden and say, here's why you don't need to worry about these things. And I think the other part that a lot of people miss, that are making a transition from any craft, but specifically unscripted to scripted, is there's actually transferable skills and value that you bring that I believe make you an even better scripted editor than just being a scripted editor. What do you think some of those things are?

Stephanie Filo

Um, well, yeah, just having a sense of ways to reorganize a story is super, super helpful, in my opinion. Even the show that I just finished working on was there's one set like sequence that was restructured and restructured and restructured, and we ended up like, I'm like, what if we're trying to save this one thing in this tiny amount of space? What if we grab, like this line from over here, in this other scene, put it here. And that was, like, alleviate this one issue that everybody seems to be bumping on. It's like you have these sort of, like, extra storytelling abilities may be in in recognizing that, like, footage can be repurposed, right. And that's not to say that, like, that's not something that always happens within scripted, but that's something that I've found to be super valuable, and just being like, Hey, I remember something from the dailies, like at the very beginning of the shoot that could maybe fit in this this year, you know, or you might be able to find reaction shots that happen between tapes, because you're so used to discovering through everything, you can be faster, maybe there's a lot of really fast, like unscripted editors who've made the jump, just because we're so used to looking at like, 20,000 hours of footage over like 10 cameras, you know, so it's, I think having those skills has definitely been like, been beneficial. And especially in like the sketch space as well, because it's like, you're constantly trying to create these moments and like, like, Miss directs, and things like that. It's super helpful and being able to like just kind of build out, build out tension, build out, an jumpscare moment build out, like a joke that maybe wasn't there that was improv, you know, if you're working with improv, it's super helpful to have an unscripted background, because you can kind of like, figure out a way to solve something really quickly.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And one of the mindsets that I think is so important, specifically, somebody listening, this quote, unquote, stuck in unscripted that's trying to make the transition to scripted is, a lot of times they're disparaging about their own scripted experience. Well, I've only worked in unscripted. I hear this all the time, I just work in unscripted and I have to stop them. Because unscripted is like the bootcamp of all boot camps for being an editor. And you should be wearing that, like you've got medals, like you've gone to war and walking in with his utmost level of competence that there is no challenge I cannot solve on a scripted show, because of what I've done an unscripted and kind of a microcosm of that is what I've seen with assistant editors. I've seen assistant editors that have come into the scripted space with no one scripted experience. And I'll say, hey, we, you know, we got this extra cameras like the GoPro or whatever, like, Oh, can we sync that in the shot? Oh, I don't know. Like, we didn't have the jam sync timecode or I'm not sure exactly what we can do with that shot. And I'm gonna have to talk to the daily sync house. I'm like, can you just sync the shot to my group like, it's not hard, you get an unscripted editor like, you guys have all the work done for you when you show up like you don't have to take all 28 cameras, and figure out the time code yourself with no slates and no paperwork like this job is a cakewalk. So I find that a lot of times people in unscripted that really disparaged the fact that it's not as good as scripted. They have exactly the opposite mindset rather than I am untouchable because I've been on scripted.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah. And there's always been that sort of like taboo of like, oh, unscripted, is not as good as scripted or like, scripted people looking down at unscripted editors. But I think that's such like nonsense, because it's so hard to cut on script. And it's really, really difficult. So I always say if anyone can survive like MTV notes, they can survive anything.

Zack Arnold

So let me ask you this question. This is a comment that I've been going back and forth with one of the students in my program. I'm going to give it no other background other than I'm just going to pose the statement. Unscripted is harder than scripted because editing scripted is basically painting by numbers.

Stephanie Filo

No That's not true. But I think it's a different part of your brain that you're using and unscripted. Like you're trying to tell a story that's not written, right. So you're looking at footage that's like, you know, barely been combed through and trying to find the story in that versus like, in scripted, you're trying to figure out a way to tell stories with pictures, right, trying to really make sure that the words on the page come to life with what you're cutting, right. So it's just two very different. They're just different, different, like, mediums, you know, in different ways that you have to think about something and unscripted, you're basically if you're an unscripted editor, you're a producer as well, right? You're like a predator. Versus in scripted, I feel like you're more collaborating with producers, in trying to make sure that the, again, the words on the page match what your your cut is, in my opinion,

Zack Arnold

yeah, I feel like and I haven't have not nearly the amount of unscripted experience that you have. This is an area where I have some, but not nearly as much as I would scripted, I've done a lot in short form, specifically, and behind the scenes, documentaries, and a lot of advertising and trailers. But now like a reality show or an unscripted competition show where true crime very little to no experience like that. But one of the things that I found in general is that in the unscripted space, I feel like my job is to just find it and make it work. As opposed to in scripted, we already have something. But now we need the level of nuance to really make it work so much better and hone it and refine it, because there's a level of expectation of quality that we have in the scripted world that we don't have an unscripted. Yeah. And I think that that's just as difficult or in certain ways even more difficult, but it's more nuanced. It's more, there's a lot of you've got a sledge hammer and an axe and a hatchet and unscripted. And you've got a scalpel in the scripted world, very, very different skill sets. But saying that somebody that cuts down trees and provides a lumber is less important than a surgeon. No, they just provide different services. And I think that you have to have those different levels of complexity, that's at least my perspective, not having done as much as scripted as you have.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, definitely. And I think also, that's where, you know, our conversation about, like, why diverse voices are important, I think they're crucial in unscripted spaces, because sometimes you might be combing through hours and hours of someone's interviews that, you know, are full of like nuance and like, maybe have like a very specific way and cadence to them. And AWS might mean something different to somebody else. Like, I think it's just really crucial to have, I mean, in both spaces, but I think in the unscripted world, when pretty much the editor is just creating everything based on the footage that they have. It's really important to like, have a variety of voices, like looking at looking at things and collaborating on things like I know, you know, unscripted world, like I was constantly in people's edit, Bay's, like, how do you what do you think of this? Like, is this going too far is this, you know, the correct approach to, to telling this story? So I think, yeah, yeah. They're different skill sets. But yeah, I think that I think that diverse voices conversation is important in both.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that back. Because that, again, is so important. All the various genres, not are mediums as well. And it's just a matter of, you know, obviously, it makes sense that yeah, we're gonna have a bunch of black females that are cutting a black lady sketch. Okay, fine. Yeah, it probably doesn't make sense to have Zack Arnold cutting that it's not his world. That one kind of an obvious choice, but there's so many other nuanced versions of shows and stories, where you can kind of sorta go either way and say, Well, I mean, I guess we could do the token diversity hire we do we really need to for this show. Because you know, it's mostly white people that are running around doing stuff anyways. But like you said, there's so much nuance and subtlety, maybe not just in the main characters, but in the way that they portray supporting characters, for example, right. That was I know, one of the big areas that we spent a lot of time in nuancing, when I was around in the early seasons of Empire, was just the way that we chose performances. And even though a lot of stories are told about Lee Daniels, most of which I won't go into at all. The guy can have moments of just mind blowing genius. And one of the coolest things, and this is I don't even think I've ever told the story before, just a random memory that just came up. But I think that it again speaks to the value of diverse voices. I remember cutting a scene in I don't remember what episode one of the middle episodes of season one of empire where Taraji P. Henson was in the back of a car. And I was adamant about the choice of a performance. And he was just like, why would you choose that performance? Show me all the cuts. So I'd show him all the cuts and all the different exits. That's the one to use and like, Yeah, but she kind of you know, stumbled on her words and like this one's cleaner. Like, I want the messy version. Give me the messy one. I like it messy. Yeah, that's a difference in personality and, and culture and like he knew a world that I didn't know, I missed her super uptight. Like, we need to make sure that the performances are perfect. And they see all the words on the page like, I don't want that. Yeah, you know, and that was part of the, the charm of that show was that he was making all the choices about the messier tapes that were more authentic to the way that they might speak that line. That's an area where I'm like, Okay, I'll do it. And at the time, and like, I still kind of like the other tape better. But as I did it more like I get it, I see what you're doing now. And that's where I kind of started to feel that inadequacy of I'm not sure I'm the right person to be doing this. Because as much as I want to be able to tell these stories. I'm not sure I'm making all the right choices, because our perspectives are so different. It's not you're better, and I'm worse, or I'm better, and you're worse, we just speak different languages.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, for sure.

Zack Arnold

So going back to something you said a little bit earlier, everything that you said, for the most part has been said with a lot of confidence, you really feel confident in the choices you made and where you are, then you got a little uncomfortable. And you started to talk about the hours and lack of work life balance and kind of, you know, this is very, very common, which is why what what I do what I do, but in order to get where you are, what are some of the sacrifices that you've made outside of the diversity conversation, just as a human being that has a pulse that needs to sleep and eat and have water and exercise and everything else? What do you feel you've had to sacrifice? And what are the some of the challenges you've dealt with getting to this place in your career?

Stephanie Filo

Um, well, I talked a little bit about like, working on to like more than one project at once. Right. So when I was in particular, just trying to sort of like, build up my scripted resume versus unscripted and just like having having a resume that showed I'd worked on scripted things, I was taking pretty much anything I was like, Okay, it's a short cut it if it's like an indie, like, feature, like, super low budget indie. Got it, but this was all while I was also cutting. D right. So, you know, I think just a lot of like sleep hours I sacrificed and like, still sometimes do not know from like the trying to, you know, break into any such arena. But it's more because I still do like social impact campaign stuff on the side. I I work with an organization in Sierra Leone, the hour difference, it's like, I'll have random conversations, you know, at three in the morning, but with with people in Sierra Leone, so I think, yeah, the sacrifices career wise that I've made are just maybe like, sleep, right? Like, my health is not always fantastic. Trying to be better about it always. And sometimes I have like long stretches, where it's great. Sometimes. Sometimes I don't, you know, and I think that's part of the reality of it, sadly, for a lot of us, but um, you know, I've always tried to be better every, every new years. My one resolution is like, I'm gonna maintain my work life balance, right? Sometimes? I do, sometimes I don't. And so it's all just like figuring out different ways to navigate that, like I, you know, for me, something that I do now, or I've started doing during the pandemic is like, is the Do Not Disturb option on my phone? Do you use that?

Zack Arnold

You mean, people can't reach you 24 hours a day, seven days a week? How dare you

Stephanie Filo

It's so nice. Like, after a certain hour, it's like you put on Do Not Disturb. And then like, no one can get through except like the couple people that you designate and get through. Right. So that's like a game changer that I found, and also just working remotely like I feel like I talked about this all the time, but it's amazing. They like lunchtime. That's a game changer.

Zack Arnold

I like it. Yeah, you definitely can't do those in the office.

Stephanie Filo

Exactly. But it's like it forces you to like not be in like this, like work bubble. So, you know, even though I've definitely over the years have, like, sacrificed a lot to, to maybe working too hard. I think there's also, you know, I've definitely consciously been trying to find, find ways to maybe manage that a little bit better.

Zack Arnold

All right now, you know, I'm gonna challenge you a little bit right now. Okay. I want to do a reverse roleplay. And I want you to imagine that I said the following. And frankly, this is not really role playing because this was reality until very recently, and still kind of is but pretend with me for a second that I say the following. Sadly, it's just the reality that most editors are white and male. It's just kind of the way that it is I don't think that there's anything that can be done about it. It's kind of a shame, but you know, it's just that's what it takes to to make the work that we do. What would your response be?

Stephanie Filo

Well, that's not the reality and also, you know, this doesn't need to be done. So I would do that again. I would disagree with the statement. So I know I know. Oh, no,

Zack Arnold

I'm not I'm not trying to be hard on you. But what I don't want to happen on this show is somebody that's listening to you, that is finally finally got somebody that looks like them that successful thinking. Sadly, the reality is that if I want to be Stephanie Filo, it means I've got to sacrifice everything else, I want to make sure that that's not part of our conversation. Obviously, I don't believe that, sadly, that's our reality, which is why I fight so hard to convince people and explain to them that does not have to be this way. And we can do just as good work, or frankly, even better work. Because we prioritize our health and our sleep and our families and our relationships, we can still be great at what we do. We just have to change the level of expectation that we have with our schedules and our budgets. So I didn't mean to call you out. But I want to make sure

Stephanie Filo

No, I'm glad. No, I'm glad that you brought that up. Because it is such an important topic. I think, like the nature somehow of our, our jobs a lot of times is like Oh, well. But here's the deadline, right? And like the producers will just be like, No, you have to hit that deadline. You know, so you end up working way harder than humanly possible. And as a result, things suffer in the process. So I'm glad that you're that you like actively call that out. Because it is like I think a toxic thing in our industry.

Zack Arnold

I think it's an incredibly toxic thing within our industry, which is why I've kind of taken this upon as my form of activism. And as we talked about beforehand, I'm essentially retired from the editing business, because I just, I believe that this is a lot more my calling and where I can provide value than being another warm body and an edit chair. I'm good at what I do. There are a lot of other people that are just as good or even better at what I do, they can hire those people. But there aren't a lot of people that are sharing these messages. That's harder to replace. I want to go back to this idea of Yeah, but I've got a producer, we've got a deadline, and we've got to hit it with inhumane hours. Why can't you just say no? You can? Have you done that in the past? Because you strike me as a very self confident, self aware person. Have you been in the position where you've just said, No, that is not when you're getting an editor's cut? That is not when we're going out to the network? Have you been able to do that? I have? And what was the consequence of that?

Stephanie Filo

I think it depends on the project. There have been ones where like, I wish I had and had not, you know, and then like in retrospect is like, you know, I wish I'd said something because as a result, why I ended up working two or three in the morning. But, you know, I feel like anytime that I have said that it's usually been respected in unscripted. I think it was not respected nearly as much but I think within scripted world, from what I've, you know, from my experiences, I think it's generally like, Oh, we're going to burn out, or we're going to burn out our editors, we need to like, go out on this.

Zack Arnold

So why are they not worried about burning out their editors and unscripted? I have a theory, but I'm curious about yours, because you have a lot more experience in that world.

Stephanie Filo

I think it has to do with like budgets, honestly, I think it's like, like a reality show, we'll sell it a show for X amount of money, there's usually just like a really small amount for st post. So it's like they can't go over this amount or they don't hit whatever quota needs to be hit. And that's not to say that doesn't happen in scripted as well. But I think, for whatever reason, in reality, like the deadlines are just tighter. It's almost like a will depending on the show, it's kind of like a conveyor belt editing in a way where it's like, you cut something and you pass it to somebody else, and you cut something and pass it. So I think it's like less, maybe less respect sometimes for you as a creative, artistic person and more just like a well, why wouldn't Why wouldn't they be able to finish that we have to meet this quota, you know?

Zack Arnold

Yeah, my hypothesis, again, not having the level of experience that you do. But my hypothesis goes along with something that you said, which is the well and unscripted, it's a little bit more like an assembly line where there's a multitude of editors. I know one of the main reasons that unscripted editors are so desperate to work on script, it just comes down to autonomy. I just want to be able to say this is my episode, not me and 12 other people. It's a very, very common conversation that I've had. And I think because of that, the people that are producing and budgeting because it's more conveyor belt assembly line format, and because there are a lot more of them just by numbers, because they're a lot more unscripted, chosen scripted. I think unscripted editors are very much seen as easily replaceable. And I think when you get to a certain level and scripted everybody, first of all is replaceable, but I think it's harder to replace people which is why they just want to kind of keep pushing you and pushing you knowing that like we have to push them and find their breaking point because that's easier than replacing them. We're in on script here like you Yeah, there's we've got 10 other people that could do this job tomorrow. So I don't know if that's anything you've ever seen or experienced, or if I'm totally out of bounds, but that's kind of sort of my hypothesis for one of those differences.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, I think that's accurate. I mean, it depends, it always depends kind of on the company, or whatever the production is. But I think a lot of times, a lot of times also, like, unscripted editors won't get paid that much, especially if it's like a newer, unscripted editor, right. So it's kind of like they have no choice, because it's like, they're not getting paid enough to like really survive if they were to lose the job. So it's like, they kind of push, it's like, they'll push greener editors further, right. And sometimes, like the more seasoned unscripted editors, like you'll go in, you'll build something and then you're done. And then keep, like, the greener ones to just keep combing through notes and stuff. For like, a really long stretch of time. So it is kind of like what you're what you're saying, it is like assembly line II and like, people are replaceable sort of situation and mentality. Also, there's a lot of like, you know, we gave you the shot to edit on this. So you have to, like do this. And I think that happens in scripted too. But I've seen that a lot and unscripted, where it's like, yeah, how could you? How could you not do this, like we gave you this opportunity? You know, yeah.

Zack Arnold

And that's just all manipulation. That's how manipulative people work. I've been in that position more times than I can count, even in scripted, where I was the, you know, the, the young, hot, new shiny object that was brought into the office, because I had a whole slew of different tool sets and skills. So of course, you know, I was there to prove myself, but it was just yeah, this, this thing, that's impossible. We need you to do it by tomorrow. But this is your chance to prove yourself. So we're doing you a favor. And I was too young to understand that. And looking back in hindsight, I really wish I had a podcast interview like this to listen to and be like, Oh, I didn't realize that was a red flag. I really thought this because they were looking out for me. And they really genuinely wanted me to shine it was they were just kind of taking advantage of my expertise. And I wish I had been able to see that more. And I certainly, and obviously see it now.

Stephanie Filo

And it's so normalized in this business, too. You know, it's like, like, Oh, of course, they would like push that out of there too far. Of course, they would expect this person to do this, this and this, when like, they really shouldn't have to do all this stuff. Sadly, something that's like very regular in this industry. So it's good to like to push back as much as we can.

Zack Arnold

This is a very, very, very common question that I get that I do not feel qualified to answer other than by default through other people's answers. And I will get it your direct answer to the following two questions, this is going to be a little bit more just brass tacks industry stuff don't need to worry about diversity or exploitation or any of that other stuff. But for somebody that wants to know the difference between the two, let's say that I don't know anything about unscripted editing, or scripted editing. And I could choose either of these paths, and I can climb either ladder. And the two things that I'm interested in learning about are how I can support myself ie what they pay. And number two, what the lifestyle looks like. What are the differences that you've seen both coming from the bottom and rising up to the top of the unscripted world and kind of sort of doing the same in scripted? What are the differences between the way that you are paid and your lifestyle in both worlds?

Stephanie Filo

So unscripted, more often than not, it's non union work. Like I said, there's usually really tight deadlines. Here a little bit of like an assembly line, and that you might get an episode like you come in, and they're like, you, you're cutting two episodes with one other person, right? So it's like you're sharing an episode with someone, you build it. Then like tons of different rounds of notes happen, right? Like in scripted you have like, who's your editors cut your your director's cut your producers cut your studio cut, like all of that. But in unscripted, you know, you might have like, here's your first rough cut, Here's your second rough cut, here's the internal cut for the production company. Here's internal cut two, here's like, you know, your first rough cut going to the network, here's, you know, rough cut to go into the network, Here's fine cut going to the network. So it's just like a ton of like, an unscripted. I've had like, projects where I've had like, 12, rough cuts that have gone to the network. You know, and so it's like, you almost are doing notes, just to show different ways that things can happen, right? Where it's like, well, what if this happens, you know, and you show it and they're like, No, that's terrible. What if they, what if this happens instead? So it's almost like you're just kind of paid to, like, show a million different versions of something. And then ultimately, it ends up going back to like, either kind of like where it was or like some amalgamation of everything. But all that is, you know, super, super restful because it's like not union. You don't have hours that are regulated. You have crazy deadlines that a lot of times like you can't necessarily, you know, people don't always fight, fight against this as it is like an assembly line. So I would say that's the difference in unscripted and also I mean, you're, you're in control more, I think of the story and unscripted. So it's not to say like, oh, here's like, all these terrible things, your independent assembly line, blah, blah, blah. It's not, that's not always the case and unscripted, but you have more control over what the finished story is, I think and unscripted, where you're looking at all these this like hours and hours of footage and trying to come up with what this what the storyline and story arcs and the whole season should be, you don't usually attend the mix and unscripted or anything like that, like you pretty much just like lock the episode in, you're out. In scripted. It's like a little bit more chill. Not to say that it always is. But because it's union, I feel like places are more serious about like, overtime, right? I don't think I was ever paid overtime once and unscripted. If I'm being honest. Versus like, in scripted, I think that, in general, the projects I've worked on have been very, like cognizant of overtime hours. And you are there from the start through the end, you know, you get to see the the mix, sometimes the color, have more of a voice, I feel like in what that finished product looks like. Like actually looks like and sounds like, which I would say is is kind of a difference as well as definitely family rambley answer, but I feel like no,

Zack Arnold

I don't think it's rambley. at all, I think that covers a lot of really great stuff, the couple of things that I've heard more than once. And again, everybody's experiences are different. So it doesn't mean that one is right and one is wrong. And it might not be your experience. But I just want to get clarification because I don't get a chance to talk to a lot of people were literally, if I were to look at one resume or the other, I assume this is the complete history of their entire career on one page. And you have two of them, both in very different divergent areas. So there's not a lot of people I feel that are this well rounded on both sides. There's certainly some but not a lot. What I've heard from more than one unscripted person that works at a very high level is they come to me and just for fulfillment reasons, creative fulfillment, they're not really attached or interested in the shows that they're working on. They want to work in scripted, then they do a little bit of research. And they're like, Oh my God, I've got to take like a huge pay cut to work and script that and I'm like, really? That kind of surprised me because I thought people in scripted make good money. But I've heard that people in unscripted can make significantly more. And I don't know if that's ever been your experience. The other thing I've heard is that in scripted, which is the opposite of what you said, but I think again, it's very much based on the production company. If it's union or not union, they'll say scripted was like a nine to five job. I went in at nine I was done at 530 or six. That's always the way that it worked. What's with you guys working 70 hours a week and nights and weekends in scripted? Like I don't, I don't want to have to give away my life just to move into scripted. So a lot of that sounds somewhat different than what you're saying. So I'm just curious. Have you had any of those experiences? Or have you heard of those even though you may not may not have seen it that way yourself?

Stephanie Filo

I mean, I think it always depends maybe on the project. And I maybe have just been lucky and scripted in that I haven't really worked on anything that's been like absolutely, like, insane. Hours wise. Yeah, I think I may have just been lucky. But I I haven't seen crazier hours than I had worked. And unscripted. You know, I'm just depending on what the project was there as well. But I think for unscripted, it's just there's a lot more. It's a different part of your brain, like I was saying before, so it's it's different, like harder work at different times. Right. So in scripted, it's harder when you're working with like producers and directors, you're kind of in these like bubbles with people unscripted. It's like you're trying to like, collaborate with people and figure out what the story is. And there was network notes and all this stuff kind of at the same time. So it's like, there's different parts of the process and maybe our our audit money was, I feel like I'm I've made. I feel like it's comparable from what I've seen, but it depends, again, on what unscripted you're working on if you're working on like a union unscripted show. I think your rate might be higher than some scripted projects. But I've definitely gotten more in scripted than I did and unscripted.

Zack Arnold

Well, it's good to know all of that just so we have, again, diverse perspectives. Even in this case, it's just diversity as far as I haven't been through those things other people have, but it's a very, very common conversation that I have over and over and just want to make sure I ask as many people as possible to have been through it. Anybody that has listened to the show regularly or specifically my students know that I would be missing a huge opportunity. If I didn't bring up the fact that you just used the L word on my show. So, you talked about being lucky. And whenever people call out being lucky, I like to share the fact that I largely don't believe in luck. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But I believe that luck plays less a factor than we think. And we're actually making choices whether consciously or subconsciously, that have created the situations that were in. So I'm curious, I'm not saying you weren't. But do you think that luck was completely the factor? In you working on scripted shows where you haven't completely been taken advantage of and working 90 and 100 hours a week? Or do you think in some way whether it was through subtle questions, conversations and learning about the people, you're going to work with it? Maybe you weren't as lucky as you thought to be in that position?

Stephanie Filo

I know I think you're right. I don't know that. It's luck. That got me there. I think that I learned something I learned in unscripted. Is that your interview with someone? is also you interviewing them, right?

Zack Arnold

Boom, yes. knowledge bomb, anybody taking notes, stars, asterisks all caps, all bold. They're not interviewing you. You're interviewing them. Sorry to interrupt to continue. This is so important.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of like red flags that can come up in an interview. And it's like, okay, like, I'm sensing a little bit of this, maybe this isn't a project that would be a good fit for me because of XY and Z thing. Yeah, I think, yeah. interviewing someone when you're being interviewed is, is crucial, because that will end up putting you on a show that feels like a good fit for you. I mean, even I was talking about the show that that reached out to like, 50 of my contact recently. And they offered me the job. And I didn't accept it because of that, because I was like, if they're not willing to accept me as, like an editor, then have to reach out to everybody I've ever met in my life, then what's working on that project? And I feel like, you're right. It's not luck. It's like a matter of understanding what red flags are, when you're meeting with with people. And also just seeing if like, your personalities can mesh well, sometimes they don't like even if it's a lovely interview, you can still kind of get get a sense that like, maybe this isn't going to be the greatest project for me. You know, my might be fantastic when it comes out. I can't wait to watch this. But you know, it's just a matter of making those conscious or unconscious decisions, but you can always feel it, I think,

Zack Arnold

do you have any go to questions that you use to suss out the red flags?

Stephanie Filo

Um, it depends on how the conversation is going. But usually, I feel like I'll ask about what their schedule looks like, that's usually my first thing, right? Like, what is the what's the timeline for this project? Um, and then I asked, I usually will ask about music and, like, the effects, for example, because I feel like those are things that are often like, kind of overlooked until later on in the in the game. So if you're cutting with something that you can't use, you know, it's, it becomes super stressful. So it's like, just kind of seeing how they answer. Little things like that sometimes can be informative. You know, you might say, like, what, how is music being handled in this? And they're like, Oh, we don't know. We're thinking of getting a composer, but it might be soc. And it might be, might be this will just like temp stuff in and figure it out later. And I'm like, No, I would love to know. Now, kind of what that's maybe gonna look like,

Zack Arnold

Figure it out later, huge red flag in any context whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. I have no interest in figuring it out later. Why don't we figure it out now. I don't like fixing it in post. Right. All right. Not so much fun for the people in post.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, cuz by the time they figure that out, it's like, you know, you're probably way already down the line and having to like, reconfigure everything. So I always feel like little things like that even is that even though they're like simple questions, they'll figure it out later thing is always like, Okay, interesting.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I think schedule is a huge one. Another one that I think is a big one is tell me more about your process. Right? Because I, you can tell the difference almost immediately between show runners and producers that have kids and ones that don't. And I always want to know about their family. Because if they don't have kids, and they're not married, I don't want to make a rash hyper generalization or a stereotype. But the likelihood is higher, just mathematically higher probability. They're going to want to work more, because they don't have outside obligations to me because of my needs. That's a red flag. It's not a red flag in total, because for some people, that's better for me. It's not because I know that if I have a recital that I want to go to at 9:30am on a Tuesday, I don't want to show her and I was like, How dare you? It's like, oh, yeah, I totally get it. I've got one on Thursday to you go do your thing. Right. So that changes the expectations. Another one that I asked is kind of a little secret one where they assume I want one answer and I actually want the opposite. I asked them what's the budget for overtime on this? What do you think they think I want to hear

Stephanie Filo

that there is a budget for overtime

Zack Arnold

oh my god, there's plenty of budget room for overtime, don't you worry about you'll be paid for all of it. What do you think the answer is that I want to hear that you don't want any overtime, we have no budget for overtime. As soon as somebody says we have plenty of room for overtime, I'm out that is an instance Sorry, I'm unavailable, maybe not in the room. But I'm done. And the reason being, because as long as there's room for overtime, they legally have the right to exploit me. We already work 60 hours a week based on our contract, which is a whole other conversation that isn't actually true. But that's the interpretation. The we're supposed to work 12 hour days, 60 hours a week for anybody listening, saying Wait, you mean, that's not true? Go to my interview that I did with Kathy Ricola. Right. During the pandemic, we broke down this myth piece by piece by piece, it is not true. But that's the expectation. If they're going to pay me more beyond that there's nothing in the world that I want to be doing for 75 hours a week, even if I'm getting paid for it. Some people do. Some people love their golden time and they love all the overtime. And that's fine. That's not something that I want. So it's not necessarily a trap. But I said, and they're thinking I want one answer, and I want the opposite. So what I will get as like, well, we're really sorry. But you know, unfortunately, there's just no room for overtime on this show. As long as I know the expectation is good. And they have to choose to have fast, cheap and good. Well, you have to choose cheap because there's no overtime and you have to choose good. So fast is out the window. I'm in baby, because then that means we can't meet your crazy deadline. You just push your deadline. I'm good with that. Totally fine with that. But it's all part of getting better at interviewing them, rather than just allowing them to interview you.

Stephanie Filo

Yeah, I always think back also on like, what's like something that went terribly wrong on on some other project? Right? So it's like, I'll just think of stuff like that.

Zack Arnold

That's a good one. I don't know if I've ever asked that one before. I'm totally going to steal that. What's something that's gone horribly wrong, either last season or on a previous project? That's great,

Stephanie Filo

but not maybe not in that wording. But

Zack Arnold

no, no, of course not. That's that's kind of that's the question underneath the question.

Stephanie Filo

It's kind of like that, like, what are challenges kind of what you had in the past on this project? Or on projects like it? How will it be different this time? No, or What? What? What solutions did you find?

Zack Arnold

Exactly. I mean, that that was one of the ways that I was able to get the job for Cobra Kai Season Two in the room, was I asked the question, what are the challenges that you dealt with Season One, because clearly, there's at least one opening in your interviewing editors? What are some of the challenges you dealt with in post? It wasn't? So tell me about the show. That was season one. Sisters, tell me what you're dealing with. And they went through this whole litany of issues. And I was able to play with that for the next 10 minutes and just systematically say, here's why that's not an issue with me. Here's why that's not an issue with me. Here's how I would solve this problem. Here's the solution I bring if that happens again, they're like, holy, like, yes. Like, we don't want to have to deal with this again. And I think we found somebody that can solve it. They didn't know for sure. But I seem like I knew what I was talking about. And in hindsight, I probably did. Because I've stuck around through season five. But the point being, again, like you said, we're going into the interview interviewing them. So that's why I wanted to call you out on this idea that well, I'm just lucky that I'm working on shows that aren't that hard. I don't believe that. The reason is because once again, if somebody's listening to this, or watching this that says finally somebody is doing what I want to be doing that looks like me. But well, she got lucky working on easier shows where it's not super hard. I don't know if I'm gonna get lucky or not. I want people to understand these are choices that you made, that are choices that they can make. Yeah. Is there anything else that's important to you, that you want to share with people listening today that we have not talked about yet?

Stephanie Filo

Probably, but I feel like I'll think of it at two in the morning.

Zack Arnold

That's usually how it happens. We'll say no, I'm all good. You know, thanks for having me on the show. Three hours later, I get an email. Dammit, I totally thought of the thing.

Stephanie Filo

No, I guarantee it happens to me all the time, where I'm just like, Wait, what was I? What was I thinking about?

Zack Arnold

Alright, so then let's do this. Let's do a little time travel experiment. You're gonna jump into time machine and you're gonna go back in time, to that little girl growing up that watch the seven opening credits and said, Holy cow, that was the coolest thing I've ever seen, that has no idea that this is actually a thing. And you can make a living doing it, but also isn't aware of all the challenges coming because of your background and your skin color. What are you going to say to her?

Stephanie Filo

Well, for starters, I would explain that this is in fact a profession that someone can have, because I think even in school, like even if you go to film school, I don't feel like editing is ever something at least for me that was ever talked about, right? It's like a side thought, learn like writing or directing or whatever, but not editing is like a craft, at least in my experience. So I feel like I would. Yeah, I would just try to emphasize that This is a potential career path that somebody can have. And it's one that is fun and like fulfilling, and you can tell stories. And if you're like a shy, shy kind of quiet kid, like I was, you know, it's like, you can still tell stories, but you don't have to be super like, you know, outwardly telling those, you can tell them visually, and you can fill them with music and pacing and sound. And, yeah, I think I would just tell them that, that it's, there's a world out here for us and you want to be, don't have to be acting to do it or don't have to be, you know, really visible in the process of doing it.

Zack Arnold

And how about somebody that understands all that, but is terrified of all the challenges that they're going to face as far as lack of diversity in the way that they look, and they don't look the way they're supposed to, to be successful doing this thing?

Stephanie Filo

I think I would just say, to keep being persistent, and just follow through with it. And as much as you know, it's maybe not the most diverse of nodes. At the moment, the only way I can become diverse is by more people who look like us coming in, you know, and I think we all have the people who look like me are the diverse candidates within post that I know are just thrilled to, like, meet and help usher in sort of a new new class of people as they as they enter posts. So I think, you know, don't be discouraged. If you don't see people that don't look like you just know that, like, we're here. And it's exciting to see new people, new people joining us, you know, and always looking at, always look at end credits at the end of end of things that we like, like, look at the editors and, and just get to know the names of people who work on projects that we really look up to. And you know, it's possible to connect with those people. And you know, it's not a world where it's impossible to reach them. So just get to know get to know the names. And

Zack Arnold

on that note, somebody is scrolling through the credits of Black Lady Sketch Show where they happen to be listening to this and they see your name. Can they connect with you? And if so, how?

Stephanie Filo

Um, yeah, I mean, just via my social media. Feel free to DM me and I always love talking about editing. So please do and my handle is just @stephaniefilo.

Zack Arnold

Well, that's easy enough. Yes. All right. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. I just had so much fun doing this recording. I'm glad that we were able to get this conversation on the record. And I think it's an important conversation, the more people need to hear. So I'm happy being at least a small part of it. So on that note, cannot thank you enough for taking the time, especially, you know, on a long Friday afternoon to sit down and to have this conversation and so thank you so much.

Stephanie Filo

Thank you so much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai