Ep124: Simple Solutions to Your Chronic Aches & Pains (and Where They Came From) | with Dr. Sadie Sanders

Zack Arnold 0:00

My name is Zack Arnold, I'm a Hollywood film and television editor, a documentary director, father of two, an American Ninja Warrior in training and the creator of optimize yourself. For over 10 years now I have obsessively searched for every possible way to optimize my own creative and athletic performance. And now I'm here to shorten your learning curve. Whether you're a creative professional who edits, writes or directs, you're an entrepreneur, or even if you're a weekend warrior, I strongly believe you can be successful without sacrificing your health, or your sanity in the process. You ready? Let's design the optimized version of you.

Hello, and welcome to the optimize yourself podcast. If you're a brand new optimizer, I welcome you and I sincerely hope that you enjoy today's conversation. If you were inspired to take action after listening today, why not tell a friend about the show and help spread the love. And if you're a longtime listener and optimizer O.G., welcome back. Whether you're brand new, or you're seasoned vet, if you have just 10 seconds today, it would mean the world to me if you click the subscribe button in your podcast app of choice, because the more people that subscribe, the more that iTunes and the other platforms can recognize this show. And thus, the more people that you and I can inspire, to step outside their comfort zones to reach their greatest potential. It is astonishing that less than 5% of adults are moving 30 minutes or more a day. So much so that it has been said sitting is the new smoking. Although it's probably no surprise to you, because I've argued for years that it's not so much just sitting that is the problem it is being sedentary. That is the new smoking, whether or not you're sitting or standing. Clearly working from home amidst a global pandemic probably hasn't made this any less true for you or anyone else. being sedentary is one of the root causes of chronic aches and pains. And if you were listening to this while sitting, you two have likely experienced a sore back or at the very minimum, a stiff neck from too much computer time. Or maybe you have tight shoulders or maybe you have tension headaches. At some point, you probably have resigned yourself to just quote unquote dealing with it. Because you don't have the time or the money for long workout routines or expensive equipment. This is just the price of getting old, right? Well, it doesn't have to be. Today's guest is Dr. Sadie Sanders, a Doctor of Chiropractic and a biomechanical guru, and she has a wealth of simple solutions for your chronic pains. Best of all, that do not require a visit to a doctor's office, Dr. Sanders has been called by many including myself the body whisperer, because she has a knack for knowing just exactly what your body needs to bring it back into balance, because she focuses on root causes, not just treating symptoms. In today's two part in depth conversation, and when I say in depth, we are going deep. She and I talked about her extensive knowledge of biomechanics, as well as physiology and how everything's all interconnected. But more importantly, we also dive into how you can eliminate your chronic pains right at your desk or in your living room using really simple stretches and exercises from something that she and I built called the move yourself activity video vault, which is just one part of my working from home Survival Guide, which I have made available to you for free and I'll give you more information about that in a minute. So if you are here today because you are ready to eliminate your aches and pains, and you're looking for simple solutions that you can do just a few minutes a day, right at your desk. This episode is for you know, it was a very quick disclaimer. This episode is pulled from two in depth interviews from back in the fitness and post archives that we have now stitched into a single marathon episode. And also since we recorded this, Dr. Sanders has since moved out of the Los Angeles area. However, her Health and Human Performance clinic is still thriving right in Woodland Hills, and has a new head doctor, Dr. Coby, who is my go to for all of my biomechanical needs, who is also featured in the move yourself activity video vault. And yes, this clinic is still open and fully functional during the pandemic. Now if you're working from home and you're looking for ways to better manage your time, your energy and your creativity to weather the storm, I have packed two of my most popular online programs into what I've called my working from home Survival Guide. It contains both my four part masterclass on how to build a habit of deep work, which has over 90 minutes of video training, exercises and worksheets to help you build a distraction free work environment, even if you're stuck at your kitchen table, and also to help combat the aches and pains that come with being stuck in one place. I've also included my move yourself activity video vault, which contains over 90 short, easy to follow bonus exercises that will help you stay active active and focused and avoid the inertia that comes with being quarantined at home in front of a computer. If you would like access to both of these programs free of charge with no trial periods, no credit card info required and no funny business, just visit optimize yourself.me slash Survival Guide. Alright, without further ado, my conversation with Chiropractor Dr. Sandy Sanders, made possible today by our amazing sponsors, ever cast and airgo driven, who are going to be featured just a bit later in today's interview, to access the show notes for this and all previous episodes, as well as to subscribe so you don't miss the next inspirational interview. Please visit optimize yourself.me slash podcast.

I'm here today with Dr. Sadie Sanders, a Doctor of Chiropractic. And I must say that she is the s to my M. She is somebody that I found fairly recently that has been helping me with a lot of major major issues that I have with my alignment and all kinds of areas. And I'm very, very excited to have you on the show today.

Sadie Sanders 6:05

Well, thank you. I'm excited to be a part of this program that you've explained to me, you have some really great work that you're doing here. And it's an honor to be involved. So thank you for having me.

Zack Arnold 6:13

Yes. And thank you. And this is the reward that you get for all the tremendous punishment that you've given me over the last two months.

Sadie Sanders 6:19

Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I know.

Zack Arnold 6:21

You absolutely are. And I will walk into the office. Every time I go. I'm like, Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, I'm and then I get out and like, Oh, I feel so much better. But it's it can be a fun journey. So what I want to do for my audience today is I want to really help them understand the nitty gritty behind what you actually do. Because, as I'm sure you know, very, very well, there are a lot of people that really don't understand the service that a chiropractor performs. And even further their thinking, and I've literally heard people say, Oh, well, all they do is just crack your back and you walk out and then they just expect you to go in and they do it every week. And they're not actually making any difference whatsoever. And I was never in that camp. But I was always a little skeptical of what the service actually provided. And then it got to the point where I was like, Alright, well I don't care if they're quack or not like this hurts, I can barely move. I need somebody to fix this. And I realized that there is a tremendous amount of science and art as well to what you do. So let's just go ahead and start from square one and just explain to people the basics of what a chiropractor does and your specific background.

Unknown Speaker 7:26

Okay, so chiropractors, we all have one common goal in mind. And that is to make the spine move correctly, we have so many different types of chiropractors in the professions, some will specialize in nutrition, some in pediatrics, some in functional medicine, we work with a lot of athletes, sports therapy, rehab in my office. So there's this huge umbrella term, but when it comes down to it, every single chiropractor is looking for joints in the spine that don't move through a full range of motion, and then we're moving them through a full range of motion. The thing that we really focus on are your biomechanics, which means how is your body moving? Are you using too much tension from one muscle? Are you moving one joint too much. And then really, we're about balancing out the body making sure that you're even right to left front to back and nothing is really asymmetrical. So if you were a new patient that walked into my office, we would check your posture, we would see if maybe one side is pulling, if maybe you're rotating in one direction, we check every single joint in the spine, which ones are moving too much, which ones are not moving enough. And then we correct that and teach you how to correct it yourself. And that's really, the big part is self care. So you could come to me every single week and get adjusted. And by the time that the next week rolled around, you could have done enough damage and stress to your body that you need an adjustment again, or you could take initiative and work on some self care and you really wouldn't have to see me all that often. That's the nitty gritty of it. So then the next question I have is a lay person that really has no understanding of what a chiropractor does and has never really been in there. what is actually happening when I hear the pop, like I can just crack my knuckles by myself. Why do I need somebody to crack my knuckles and crack my back and crack my hips? Like, whatever? Like? Seriously, you go to school just to crack somebody back? Like what is it it's actually happening? so people understand there's more to it than Oh, I cracked my knuckles in there better. Okay, so that's a two part question. So the first is, What is that sound? And the second is why can I do it myself. So the one is that sound is pretty easily answered. And when you move a joint through a full range of motion, if it hasn't moved that way in a while there's a little bit of a gasp build up, you get the pop noise. That's the noise. Not really anything fancy about that. Sometimes we even get a really good adjustment without the pop noise but it's more common that you have it. The second part of that question is Why can't I just do it myself? Well, I went to school for a very long time. To make sure that I knew when I should adjust somebody, and when I should not adjust somebody. So that's part of that. And the other is specificity. So if I were to try to crack my own, I'm not going to be able to hold my fingers in the right direction to make sure that I am not rotating one segment that's too mobile, and just trying to get on the one that's tight. I mean, it's just not possible. You can't, you can't be that specific with yourself. So when somebody tends to want to crack their own neck or their own back, they're actually cracking the area that's moving too much, not the one that's too tight that you're sensing all the time. And that's why if you're a chronic cracker, you feel the need to do it every hour or two, because you didn't get to the actual tight spot. You got to the loose one right next to it. So does that pretty much sum up that question for you?

Zack Arnold 10:51

Yeah. So they just want to clarify, you just called me a cracker. Correct? I did. I just just want to make sure we have that we have that recorded? Yes. I'm a chronic cracker. There's no question. I've been to the south. I've been called the cracker many times. So. So yes, yeah, that definitely answers the question where people will think that no, there's the the opposite is, oh, well, when I crack my knuckles, that means there's something wrong or I'm hurting myself in some way. You know, and it is literally just gas buildup in the joints.

Unknown Speaker 11:18

Yeah, it's gas buildup. And I also get asked a lot, you know, this pops, when I move is that a bad thing, the only time a pop is bad is if you are forcing it. So when you go to crack your back, maybe you're grabbing the back of your chair and yanking yourself through that's just not safe. Or if a pot is painful, you can get little pops here and there with no pain. And those aren't really anything that I worried about with my patients.

Zack Arnold 11:45

So the real reason that I wanted people to listen to this show, it's great to get a little bit of a background on what a chiropractor actually does, and the service they provide. But I think the really important reason that I want you on the show today is to explain to people what is happening to their bodies over time as they chronically are working in front of computers, because I'm assuming that the majority of the customers that you have are coming in. And they have similar issues because they're sedentary, whether it's sitting, which I'm guessing is the majority people, or people like me that are sedentary, but standing and coming in with a lot of the same chronic issues. So can you just talk about some of the negative adaptations that are happening in the body from a biomechanics perspective, and just explaining here's, here's what's happening to your body when you're doing all this all day long. And then we'll start to go on ways that we can start to reverse it.

Unknown Speaker 12:37

Okay, so let's talk first about structure and the spinal structure. So we have these 24 bones that start at the very top of our neck can go all the way down to our tailbone. And each one is supposed to have a small amount of movement that globally makes it possible for you to maybe touch your toes or turn your head to back out of the driveway. And the way that we keep every single one of those bones healthy, is to make sure it's moving the correct amount. Now, if one area gets tight, your body actually adapts. And it assumes that it doesn't need to move anymore. Our bodies are very, very efficient machines. And anytime that we aren't using something in it, it says I don't really need needing this anymore, and it kind of walls it off a little bit. So if I'm somebody who is sitting all day long with my chin poked out, my neck is very tight, my body is going to start to build some scar tissue in that area. And when I do try to start moving around again, I just don't have the range of motion that I should a couple different things happen in this scenario, it's going to find the motion somewhere else. And that's where disc injuries come from. So if my ligaments are very tight, surrounding part of the neck, and the ligaments are the parts of the body that attach bone to bone, if they're very tight, because they have scar tissue growing around them, I haven't been moving them often enough, then I still have to turn around when I'm trying to back my car out. And I'm going to wear away at another area of the spine which is the disc the bones that the cushion that lives between the bones. And that's where we get degeneration degenerative disc disease, we get arthritis from wearing that area out. And that can in time become painful from growing bone spurs or maybe causing some pressure on the nerves. That's the structural problems that we have. Now there's a huge physiological aspect of movement as well. There's been so much research on the stimulation of the mechanical receptors. So the movement receptors of the spine and how that affects all of our different life processes including train of thought and mental clarity. immunity digestion, pretty much every physical process you can think of. So a person who is sedentary is not stimulating the the motion receptors of the spine, which is not stimulating, actually, technically the vermis of the cerebellum in the brain, if we're going to get super scientific here, and that changes your mood, it changes your hormone production, it changes your sleep wake cycles, and essentially, you're causing damage to your body by not stimulating those functions. So it's twofold, you get some structural issues that can be permanent. And then you get some physiological changes that over time can cause chronic issues like heart disease, if your blood pressure is not stimulated correctly, some cholesterol buildup if your hormones aren't being made the right way. I mean, it really takes a huge toll on our bodies. So then there's more to it than just cracking my back interesting.

Zack Arnold 15:54

Well, great, this is where I want to go. Everybody that listens to the show knows that I love to geek out on the science. So if you want to start digging in and using big words like cerebellum, like, let's do it that that is totally what I'm all about as a really want a place where people can dig into something they wouldn't otherwise dig into, but find a very practical application of how it affects their lives. So let's say that I am your I don't know for sure if this is your usual client, but let's just assume that your usual client is somebody that is sitting, and they had improper posture. And in my industry, let's say they're doing it for 10 to 12 hours a day, because I think it's hilarious when I see all these sitting is the new smoking articles. They're saying sitting 68 hours a day, and I'm like, that's a half day for industry, like seriously eight hours, like when I leave after eight hours, I feel guilty. So when you see people that are sitting literally all day long, or they might get up three times, what's happening to their body, like what specific areas are you seeing that people chronically have the same issue over and over?

Unknown Speaker 16:54

Okay, so that is my typical patient that I have coming into my office, anybody that's stressed is somebody that I see. And if we're sitting it really is, it decays the spine. So the main areas that I see is tightness in the front of the hips, because if I'm sitting all day long, then my knees are tucking at least halfway up to my chest, we will also see tightness in the front of the chest, or the pecs, and we'll see tightness in the muscles that live right at the base of your skull called your sub occipital. Now, when these muscles are all short and tight, it changes the posture of the spine. So now my butt is going to round down if my hips are too tight, and that elongates or stretches the muscles that control the posture of my low back, which are called the lumbar pear spinals. Now most people don't sense that their hips are too tight, their brain will actually perceive that tension or the elongation along the lumbar paraspinal. And so you sense that you have back discomfort, back tightness, when really your back is being stretched too far. And that's why you feel that it's tight. Now the same kind of a process happens with the pecs and then the upper back, otherwise known as the traps. So if my pecs are tight, it's going to roll my shoulders in words, it's going to kind of bend my mid back down further than it should. And now the posture muscles, the thoracic paraspinal is the traps that are supposed to hold me up, right, they're being overstretched as well. And we feel like we have neck tightness, we feel like we have burning up the upper back because those muscles are being overstretched and are not getting enough blood flow. Those are the main areas that I attack on those first few visits, getting somebody to understand why they need to straighten that up why they need to open that up. Because that will cause excessive movement and all the other areas. And again, we're back to that disc issue that we were talking about earlier. So getting up getting out of that seated position, stretching those muscles out so that your spine can be balanced again, essentially.

Zack Arnold 19:06

Yeah, and as you were going through listing all the specific areas, I just sat on the other end of my microphone saying Yep, yep, yep. Yeah, yep, those are my trouble spots. And you know, trust me at this point, you now know my body better than I do. And you know all the spots where I just come in here like Yep, and you just literally take one little tiny finger and you just press a little bit Oh my god, this is fun. It's like it's it's it's crazy the way that that works. But But I think that the the really important takeaway for me when I first started doing this and learning about biomechanics, because I've done a little bit of just like self research and reading a few books, and I certainly am not certified and I maybe know a hundredth of what you do. But at the same time, I have a very basic understanding of the theory behind biomechanics. And what is so cool to me about biomechanics was this discovery, that if I have a pain in my shoulder, what do I want to do? I want to rub that spot on my shoulder that hurts, but what you're doing is you're treating symptom, you're not going after the source. And I think that's where going to a chiropractor and working with somebody that has the scientific background to understand. biomechanics is going to be so immensely helpful. Because like one of the cool things that you and I just discovered, like a week ago, or whenever it was, is I have this chronic spots, it's in that spot right at the base of the skull on my right side, you're like, Oh, yeah, well, that's being caused partly by this muscle that's on your your lower back the the quadric, Miss Maximus, or whatever you call that, I don't remember. But the quad, something, but it's like the lower lower left side of my back, and you're like, yeah, that's why the upper right side of your neck hurts. I'm like, That's crazy. So I think it's important for people to understand that when they go to grab their lower back or grab their shoulder or grab their neck, that's not actually the problem. And just explain to people a little bit just in very, very general terms, just about the the biomechanic chain, and how are they are these different major areas of the body that then kind of radiate out to other ones. And just explaining like how all of that connects?

Unknown Speaker 21:01

Well, I'm going to hit on two points, then one thing is a referred pain pattern. And if you do want to geek it out, and Google travail, trigger point patterns, this is a scientist that did a lot of research on, hey, why is the muscle tight here, but they're telling me that they have pain here. So there's a very mapped out chart of the body that says, if you have a knot, or a sore spot in this area, and I press it and hold it, it's gonna cause an achy, dull pain somewhere else. And that's actually the number one cause of tension headaches. So remember those muscles that I talked about on the back of the base of the skull suboccipital, if you hold pressure on there, and it starts to bring back your familiar, you know, 5pm, headache, kind of creeping along the side of your face, then you have what we call as a trigger point referral pattern. So you might have been rubbing your temple because it was achy. But that's a projected pain pattern from a very tight muscle. So that's one of the crazy aspects that I get to study and impress people with one eye poke on things. But the other is understanding what makes something painful. So pain is a very tricky thing. And it's not always the source, like you're saying. So you know, it's coming from somewhere else, your shoulder hurts. So you want to rub that? Well, pain can can be there when something is being overstretched when something is being tight when something is swollen when something is inflamed. So really, what we're looking for when we have somebody come in is, where's the break in the chain, and I'm going to address that no matter where the person hurts. So if you came in and you poked at your shoulder, I would appease you by poking that spot and saying, okay, right there, and then I'm going to go looking for the source, I'm going to go looking for the ones that are commonly tight. So we just look for anything along the chain that's not moving. So I'll use an example of the shoulder that we've hit on a few times. If somebody has a pain in the back of their shoulder, kind of where it meets their armpit, right? That is almost every single time caused by a tightness in the muscle at the front of the armpit. So somebody comes in, they complain about that shoulder, I touch that area, but then I go to the front of the armpit and I loosen it up and almost every single time. Okay, that feels better in the back of the pit. So we look for the tight spot anywhere along that chain. Does that make sense?

Zack Arnold 23:31

Yes, that makes perfect sense. And the analogy that I want to get from my audience that I think will help them understand this as well, because I have emailed now hundreds and hundreds of people in my industry have talked to many of them in person. And almost everybody will say they have the same basic pain points. So it's very, very common. And I think that the the perfect analogy to use as the majority of people that listen to the show or editors, we are people that take random raw footage and put it together into a story. And then all of a sudden, you will get notes from somebody from a producer from a director, whomever it might be, and they're like, well, you really need to fix this, this and this. And as an editor, we're like, No, no, no, no, no, that's not the problem. You're just looking at the symptom. I know what the source of the problem is. So that's that's an idea that we're very, very accustomed to where I don't want somebody to tell me the solution. Just tell me the source of the problem. So if a scene is really, really slow, they're saying we'll cut this line in this line. And this line is like no, no, no, no, no, it's slow, because the previous scene is too fast. So for those that are listening, that understand that thought process, that thought process as an editor, knowing that you don't want somebody to tell you how to fix the problem. Just tell me what the problem is. And I'll find the source of it. You're doing exactly the same thing, where I'm sure you have clients that come in and say can you just rub up my shoulder and you're like, it has nothing to do with your shoulder. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 24:56

that happens to us all the time and even to kind of build on A little bit more is, why is the front of the shoulder tight. So even though you're coming in because the back of your shoulder hurts, and I secretly know that it's from the front of your shoulder, my job then is to figure out why is the front of your shoulder tight. So the only reason that a person comes in with tightness, pain is because of a stress. And usually in my office, it's a physical stress. And a muscle that hasn't been moved in a long time is a great version of that. But it might be a chemical stress, somebody's eating only junk food, they haven't had a glass of water in six months, their body is just really dehydrated, that can cause a tight front of the shoulder. Because it's a it's a chemical or stressor. If you've gotten a fight with a co worker, and you just got really riled up about it, that can cause tightness in the front of your shoulder, because emotional stress takes a toll on our body as well. So it's two part, you know, I have to figure out what is the actual start of it? And then what made that come into play as well.

Zack Arnold 25:58

Yeah, I think that's really, really crucial to understand, as well, because people will think, Okay, well, I sit all day. So my lower back hurts, therefore, I need somebody to rub out my lower back, and I need them to crack it. And I'm done. But one of the things that I've learned from my yoga practice over the years, and I did a show recently with Allie Hamilton, who's the owner of Yogi's anonymous, and she is the one that really helped me understand this idea that we hold certain emotions and certain parts of our body. And if somebody's listening to this thing is just a bunch of crap. Go ahead and get mad at somebody and pay attention to your body, you are tense, you are literally holding muscles, and you are tense, and you're going to hold them in different places. But again, like you were saying, This guy put together the this trigger point chart, they have actually mapped where there are certain general areas where you hold specific types of emotions, and it's in your body. So what I discovered is that there were because I was just so type A and so into my work and so hard on myself, I was holding a tremendous amount of tension in my lower back. It was like, What do you mean, I'm holding emotions in my lower back, my lower back just hurts just fix it. And that was a huge revelation for me. And another example would be that if you're somebody that's really closed off, and pushes people away, and doesn't let people in emotionally, not only are you closed off in a spiritual sense, or a mental sense, your body is physically in a position where you are protecting your heart, where you are going to have shortened packs, and you're literally going to have curvature in your shoulders, or you are physically literally where you can measure the fact that you're protecting your heart muscle that is that correct assessment that is beyond correct.

Unknown Speaker 27:39

And I, I was from the same train of thought, I am a science girl through and through, mumbo jumbo energetic, I had nothing, no desire to learn anything about it till I was in school, and I adjusted a patient and she started sobbing and it was a grief sob if you've ever heard a grief sob, you don't forget it. It's a very distinct cry. And she had no idea where it came from. And we realized that I had released an area of tightness in her body that she had been holding that in, and I chalked it up as one weird patient, no big deal. And here I am in my seventh year of practice, and I could map out your body emotionally without ever even having a conversation with you about what's going on. And that's from clinical experience. So I started doing more research on it and you, you cannot separate the body and the mind at all. When it comes to science, there's no way to pull the two of them apart. So maybe you are somebody that prefers to approach your healing from the energetic or the emotional side. Or maybe you're somebody that prefers to approach your healing from the physical side, I'm telling you that you're going to get good results either way. So grab one, hold on to it and go.

Zack Arnold 28:57

Yeah, and I've actually been through that. And it scared the crap out of me. And it didn't it didn't happen in a chiropractor's office that happened in a yoga class. And the story is that I edited all of the promotional material for the Passion of the Christ. So I edited the teaser trailer, the theatrical trailer, basically any single spot that was on TV, DVD, Home Entertainment broadcast, I spent over a year, spending 12 to 14 hours a day watching The Passion of the Christ, you can imagine that that's going to have a little bit of an impact on somebody. And I remember I was in a yoga class on a Saturday night and this was right after I'd seen it the first time I actually had to go. And there's like the secret meeting and Mel Gibson's board room. And, you know, they're like six people allowed. And I had no idea. I mean, I knew what the movie was about. That's a stupid thing to say. But I really had no idea what the film was at the time because nobody had it was like, oh, Mel Gibson made a movie about Christ. Okay, what is this? And it was so emotionally shocking to me that I literally walked out in silence. I'm like, Oh my god, what did I just see? And I went to yoga Go to class the next night and I had a really, really tough class. And I remember sitting in Shavasana and corpse pose just lying there. And all Alli did and this was alley that actually did this. She may even remember this, even though it was like God, what, 1210 1112 years ago now. And all she did is she lifted my lower back slightly to give me a little bit of curvature in the spine, and I bawled my eyes out for 10 minutes. I'm like, What the hell is wrong with me? And she came afterwards, she's like, are you okay? What happened? I'm like, I have no idea what that was. But I've experienced the grief sob coming from a physical adjustment. And it wasn't a major adjustment, it was literally just gently putting her hands on my lower back, lifting my lower back like three inches, creating a little bit of space, and the floodgates just opened.

Unknown Speaker 30:46

Yeah, we keep tissues in every single one of our treatment rooms at the office. And it's not because people get allergies.

Unknown Speaker 30:56

Because we get criers all the time.

Zack Arnold 30:58

Yeah. And I think that's, that's an amazing insight for people to realize, and why I think it's so important to do body work like this. And it's also incredibly important to do massage therapy, deep tissue therapy, trigger point therapy, and I want to get into some of that. But before we do, what are all of my emotional issues? Maybe because now that you've adjusted me, you can tell me what's wrong with me.

Unknown Speaker 31:21

Okay, so if we get a little bit into some of the energetic, the right side of the body is the masculine side and the left side of the body is the feminine side. Have you heard that concept before? Is that something that's mind blowing? And new to

Zack Arnold 31:34

know, I've heard it, it's not something that I remember hearing recently. But yeah, it's not a concept and like, Oh, my God, that's crazy. So no, I've heard something about that.

Unknown Speaker 31:41

That's been around for who knows how long so you tend to have a right at band and hip tension. Okay. HIV is linked to vulnerability or being taken advantage of, and masculinity is a somebody who is provider is the rock. So you feel as though your work is something that leaves you vulnerable, and that you spend a lot of time pouring yourself into it? And that's from right, yep, that's always tight. Damn.

Zack Arnold 32:13

That's completely inaccurate. None of that is correct. It's complete BS. It doesn't sound like me at all. Not at all. No, not even remotely. Well. Okay, so that's kind of creepy. And I should not have asked that. But I'm glad I did. Because it's actually really interesting that, you know, you've I've done maybe 1015 adjustments now. And not even all of them with you. Like you have a colleague that works with you as well. And you guys just compare notes. But without ever really having a single in depth conversation, you basically just summed up my life and one sore muscle. So I appreciate that. Thanks for that. That's

Unknown Speaker 32:42

what we do. And we use that power, not knowledge when we think a patient needs that nudge. But if if we don't think that's the right approach to take, then we just let it be.

Zack Arnold 32:55

So now we want to go in a little bit different direction now that we've psychoanalyze me and everybody knows my deepest, darkest emotional secrets and knows that my IT band hurts on top of it. Um, what I want to understand a little bit is why would I go to you instead of a physical therapist? What's the difference?

Unknown Speaker 33:11

So there is a huge difference in the way that we are trained. So physical therapists are trained, very similar to the medical doctor philosophy, which if we sum it up in one sentence is what's wrong with you, let's put a name on it. And let's throw a drug at it or surgery. So we wait until somebody's super sick, we call it something and then we mask the symptoms. Physical Therapy is along that same line of Okay, you have pain here, we're going to call it a tendinitis. tendinitis needs altra sound stretching, and then we move on chiropractors, and don't get me wrong. There are some wonderful physical therapists out there. I refer to them all the time. And a lot of physical therapists are actually getting their doctorate in physical therapy. So they they are doctors, it's just their thinking is very Western. Now chiropractors, we are trained to understand that the body is this awesome healing mechanism. And it runs perfectly well, if you just get out of its way and you stop stressing it out all the time. And evidence of that is nobody needs a drug to heal a scratch. Nobody needs to have anything in particular to fight off a viral infection. Our body does it itself. It's a smart body, it knows what it's doing. So when we address a body, we come at it with that philosophy of if I just show you a couple little things to reduce some stress and increase some strength, then it's it's going to heal itself. Now the other if we're getting super technical here, physical therapists are only allowed to stretch joints. They are not allowed to adjust joints. And we talked earlier about how stimulation of the mccanna receptors Do the movement receptors of the spine is absolutely crucial to brain function body function. So we're stimulating the spine past a point that a physical therapist is legally allowed to do. And your body will respond to that in a much more powerful way. So a physical therapist when we refer to them at our office, it's because somebody needs more intense stretching, somebody needs more intense anti inflammatory issues, because they're not responding to self care. They need a little extra nudge. But we continue to see them for their adjustment and for their lifestyle, habit changing people who tend to seek out chiropractors over physical therapists, they understand the value of the adjustment and how it is an overall body process and how it will really help us to follow the chain of the biomechanics that we talked about earlier. For example, a few months back, I had a patient who was training for a really awesome, kind of a sport and style race, which I think you're familiar with those.

Zack Arnold 36:04

Yes, very good. And I was actually going to go there next. So continue it. This will be a good segue.

Unknown Speaker 36:08

All right. So he had come in to see me with some pretty sharp knee pain. Now a physical therapist would most likely look at the knee doing the exam, knees a little swollen. Here's some anti inflammatory processes altra sound Eastham and your calf little tight as well. Let's go ahead and stretch that. I checked him out, I realized that the third bone in his foot was not moving his ankle was not translating anteriorly over his heel. So when he was stepping, he didn't have enough shock absorption in his ankle. And so that shock was going straight up to his knee. On top of that his SI joint which is the the base of the spine where the tailbone meets the hips. It's a huge powerhouse for running, starting and stopping movement, moving the big load that our body and our booty is, and his SI joint was also stuck on that same side. So he wasn't able to really get good balance or good start and stop. So again, the force was going straight through his knee. So we evaluate the body on a bigger scale. And we can do more when it comes to that adjustment and getting the range of motion back. How's that? for answering that question? You must be so much fun to parties.

Zack Arnold 37:24

Oh my god. Like My neck hurts, you're like, Well, that's because your big toe is you haven't cut your nail recently. Good hearty drink. Really, really, you're like Sherlock. I'm glad you brought up the Spartan thing because I wanted to go into this next because I'm hoping that much of my audience knows that that's kind of my that's the way that I clean up the cobwebs, so to speak and get rid of all the stress. And the BS of working in this industry is that my hobby, so to speak, is doing Spartan racing. And I done a Spartan Race at the, you know, the first week of December last year. And it was at the time I was coming to you. And I literally I was Frankenstein like I couldn't look over in my blind spot in my car. And like if my daughter needed something in the passenger seat behind me, I literally like murmur like I could move my neck like I was Frankenstein, and my lower back was tight. And like I would bend over and try and touch my toes. And I can do it because I'm flexible, but there was all this tightness. And I remember thinking, I'm not even sure that I should be running a Spartan Race because I might hurt myself further. Like, there's clearly an injury here and I'm just going to injure it for and this is stupid. But that's what I do is I run Spartan races when I probably shouldn't be running them. And I went and I did it. And I remember being at the spot, the starting line, and you know, just getting kind of amped up and thinking, I don't know if I should be doing this. I don't know if I should be doing this. And they said Guess what? So this three mile race that you're running, we lied. It's five and a half Good luck. And then everybody started running. But I swear to God, I didn't feel one thing. I had no pain. I was crawling under things, jumping over things, climbing ropes, scaling, 10 foot walls, jumping right off those walls onto hard ground. I never felt anything. I felt mobile, I felt flexible. And all of a sudden I was done. I'm like, What the hell like I just busted my ass for five and a half miles climbed over 2000 feet of elevation gain cumulatively is a two hour race just to go five miles. And I felt fantastic. And I came in the next day or the day after. And I said, What is going on? I don't understand because I could barely walk and I was Frankenstein. How do they run a five and a half mile race and the reason I bring this up is people think they can't do something like go run a five K or start an exercise program because they just hurt everywhere. And I want them to understand that it's actually going to help those issues.

Unknown Speaker 39:39

So I do remember that and we we laughed at how you are just the most abnormal person and then I explained to the geeky sciences to actually why you're the norm. So the way that our bodies work. We talked about the mccanna receptors in the spine a little bit. Now the mccanna receptors. They are the ones that sent the move. Now there's also no c scepters. Now nociceptors, they understood, they perceive the noxious stimuli, the annoying stimuli, the irritants, things like that. Now, the mccanna receptors, they're the big bullies, and they tell those nociceptors, when to bug off. So that's the same concept as when you were little, and you would fall and you would skin your knee and your mom would rub it, or she would kiss it, because then your body would sense the movement, the touch, and the pain would actually go away. Or now when we're older, and we slam our hand into the drawer, and the first thing we do after swearing is, we shake our hand, we move our fingers instinctively, because as soon as the our body senses that movement, it shuts the pain receptors off. So by going out and being totally nuts, and moving probably every single muscle in your body and moving your spine and your joints through its full range of motion, you got a huge surge of mccanna reception, or movement reception. And those nociceptors those noxious stimuli or pain receptors, they were told by your body go bug off, we're busy. Here we are sensing the movement, we don't need to feel this pain anymore. And in doing so you you kind of not only reset that that nervous system, but you reset your brain chemistry a little bit because now your body hasn't been bombarded with tons of nociception for however many hours it took you to complete that. And your body's actually able to to heal during that time. Because our bodies crave that movement. And on the other hand, you blew off some pretty good steam, because that's something that we love to do. We get crazy, our adrenaline's pumping, and again, that serves as kind of a numbing agent so that your body can shut off that nociception a little bit. And you were able to break that vicious pain cycle of I'm hurting, I don't want to move, I'm hurting, I don't want to move. And instead, your body says I'm moving and I don't want to hurt.

Zack Arnold 41:58

Yeah, and I think that, again, like I said before, the reason I want to bring this up is this doesn't mean that if your lower back is hurt, and you threw your back out, you should run a Spartan Race tomorrow. The reason I'm bringing it up and I, I would like you to speak to, I'm sure you've seen this happen to more than just me, I'm sure I'm not the anomaly. But we're so somebody will say Oh, my back just hurts all the time, or this hurts or that hurts. And then all of a sudden, they kind of push themselves just to do an exercise routine or do whatever and they're like, I don't get it, I feel so much better. So is that basically the same thing that's happening,

Unknown Speaker 42:29

it is exactly the same thing that's happening, and you just have to make sure that you're finding the right exercise. And that's what you know, our program and what we would help you with as well.

Zack Arnold 42:37

Yeah, and I think that's what I really want people to recognize is that even though you think that there's an obstacle in your way, sometimes that obstacle is really more of an excuse than it is an obstacle. So if you're thinking, well, I can't exercise because my back hurts all the time, well, maybe your back isn't gonna hurt if you exercise

Unknown Speaker 42:53

is getting over a small obstacle. So either if you if you continue to sit and you're sedentary, your back most definitely will continue to always hurt that it's decaying, it's getting degeneration, that is what's going to happen. Now when you start up and get moving, there'll be a short period of time where you're sore and achy. But once the stress is decreased, because your muscles are getting stretched out. And once the strength is increased, because your muscles are growing in the correct areas, then you're over that pain hump. So it's an obstacle that's much shorter to hurdle than just sitting all the time.

Zack Arnold 43:28

Exactly. And that's really this is now getting to the the real reason that I wanted to have you on this show is that you are now going to be partnering with me and providing a whole bunch of content in the course that I've created. And now, by the time of releasing this show, I'm actually bringing on my first beta members to this course. And you talked a little bit about the self healing process. And that's really what I want people to understand is that this is within their control. And they can do something about this, they just need the roadmap for it. Because if you're thinking, well, if I go to the chiropractor, and they crack my neck, and I feel better, I'm just now stuck going to the chiropractor every week for the rest of my life. And it's actually the exact opposite where you're trying to show people No, no, no, what I'm doing is I'm alleviating the situation first. And now I'm going to show you all the spots that you need to hit. So you can not have to deal with this chronically. So let's talk about the self care aspect of this, and how that process actually works and how it is very doable and actually is essential to what you do for a living.

Unknown Speaker 44:29

So even before you and I met each other I knew that people don't have time to just sit down and do hours and hours of stretching. So I designed my my treatment programs to involve two to five minutes of work per day that makes an effect on a person's body. The way that we start is, well let me back up just a little bit. Anytime that somebody has more stress in their life than they have strength that's when you run into problems. That's when we get Sick, that's when we have pain, that's when the spine gets stuck. So what we start doing is we start peeling away some of the stress, and we start building up some of the strength. So if you never do any of the homework that I've assigned you, which I strongly discourage, you will be somebody that comes in all the time, because you're not changing your stress, you're not changing your strength. If you do the homework that we we give them you're decreasing your stress, you're in increasing your strength. And that means that you need less from me you understand your own body, you are able to do what is right for yourself, because you you can tell, you can feel it and you know, so we first start by peeling away layers of tightness, muscle knots that have been stuck for a long time, depending on whatever condition they have. And we generally start with that posture that we talked about the short, tight hips, the short pecs. Now the next step after you've loosened up is to strengthen the muscles that prevent you from curling back up into a ball again, because you're still going to sit for your 14 hour day, I know that you know that that's not going to change. But if I can increase the strength of your core, your upper back your glutes, then after you sit for 14 hours, yeah, your stress was high. But guess what, your strength was higher. And now there's no damage that you've done to your body. It's just taking the two to five minutes to stretch out the hips, strengthen up the core, the glutes to make that possible. So self care is the Why are you having too much stress and having not enough strength? That's the real cause of the stuck spine that's causing the degeneration that's causing the physiological changes. So we have to keep kind of backing it up and figuring out what do we do? You're only with me in my office for a short period of time, but you're with yourself for 24 hours a day. What can I do to teach you to take care of yourself in that additional time?

Zack Arnold 46:57

Yeah. And I think it's so easy for people to just jump into the into skeptical mode and put on their cynicism hat and say, Well, if she fixed me that I would never have to go and you know, then she wouldn't be making money off of me. And I know people that say stuff like that. I'm like, yeah, and I'm sure that you hear it all the time, too. It's like, Well, why would she want to fix me, then she can't make money. It's like, because these are good people. That's the she chose a profession that helps people better their lives. But there's so many people that can't wrap their heads around that. But I digress. Like that's getting on a soapbox. But that just drives me crazy.

Unknown Speaker 47:28

Yeah. And you know, if I didn't teach you, these stretches, and these these different strengthening issues, then I would just tell people that they do have to see me forever. And that's that's actually not the case. So anytime that you have more your stress than strength, that's when you need me. But if you can do your part on that, you'll need me a heck of a lot less.

Zack Arnold 47:45

Yeah. And I think that once people realize that, Oh, wait, I only have to do two to five minutes a day. And you can actually show me what I need to do? Well, that's doable. Because if you tell somebody Listen, you're gonna have to run five miles a day, and you're gonna have to change your diet, and you're gonna have to get an extra three hours of sleep, and then you're going to be healthy. People say, well screw that I'm not doing any of it. I'm going to work my 14 hours, I'm going to sit, I'm going to go home, I'm going to drink a beer and watch Netflix, because that's what I do. And what I'm trying to show people is there's a much, much easier way to get through the day to have more creative focus to have more energy and to fix these issues while still working a 14 hour a day. Like as of right now we're actually recording this in the evening. It's about 7pm. I've been working since 6am. This morning, I 17,000 steps right now. That's just because I find ways to move all day long. I set specific rules and triggers to make sure that without even thinking about it just habitually, I'd become an automated robot, where at the end of the day, if you said would you do today, Sam, I don't know I didn't do much of anything. Well, then how did you get 20,000 steps, like because because I develop those routines. And what you've helped me do is realize all right, well, my lower back hurts, I need to stop rubbing up my lower back. And I need to stick a lacrosse ball here. And I need to put the foam roller here. And that's something that you and I are working on together that will be available in this course. And again, hint shameless plug, I'm looking for beta members that want to work on this with me. But the idea is that we will say, Hey, here's an area where I think that you know, I'm chronically sore. And granted, at the end of the day, full disclaimer, you should have a professional check it out. Don't just think that a video course is going to show you everything that you need to know. But it's very approachable, that once you understand some of the basic biomechanics of what's going on with your body. There is an entire protocol of self care that you can do literally from your phone from your office during the day. So if you've just been saying, Oh, I sit all day long. I'm so exhausted, my lower back hurts. But this is just the way that it is in this industry. There's nothing that I can do. It's complete bs because it's completely within your control to fix it. And what we are doing is providing the roadmap and the tools and the knowledge to be able to get over that hump and move forward. Absolutely. And I've been doing that in my office for A long time. And now it's great to have the access to be able to share that with more people. And I'm sure that it just drives you nuts where you like you said you have people to come in Week after week after week. Oh, did you do the stretches? No. Did you do the stretches? No, you're like, really?

Unknown Speaker 50:15

Yeah, I guess they just want to see my beautiful face is what it comes down to.

Zack Arnold 50:19

me. Sure, there's that. But I know that for me, I will actually walk in and like, No, I didn't do the stretches yesterday, like I actually feel bad about it, because it's actually something that I'm really, really intent on doing. But they're just days when stuff comes up, and you just don't get to it. But the days that I will literally like you said two to five minutes, once or twice a day. And I will just do it. And all of a sudden I'm like, Wait a second. It's 10 o'clock at night, and I don't hurt at all at this place where I just expect to be in pain right now. Exactly. So it's it's not this overwhelming amount of work that needs to be done are these crazy pretzel stretches, you just all you need to do is learn what are the few tools that I needed my office that are very inexpensive that you can put under a coffee table under a desk. It's not like I'm asking people to go get a Bowflex and throw it on their office. Because a Bowflex is a piece of crap anyway. But you get my point. But the idea is that you the routines are there. And like I said, when some people will say, Yes, I'm gonna do it. And then they don't, what do they often say? Like, you know, if you're like, Well, okay, well, I'm going to do these stretches. But how can I actually do that? What would usually tell somebody

Unknown Speaker 51:24

I first I demonstrate it for him, I let them know what's going on. And I have them tie it with something they're already doing throughout their day. If I'm having somebody work on balanced training, they're they're doing it while they're brushing their teeth. If somebody has an exercise that they do two times you do it while you're changing your clothes. It's something that you if you aren't able to do it, then it's because you're not choosing to do it. we simplify it as much as we can, so that I assume that everybody's as busy as I am. You know, we've both been working for 12 hours at this point. And I've gotten my exercises in today. And so I assume that you can as well,

Zack Arnold 52:01

well, I'm sure that you've also heard this one where somebody will say, Yeah, I set an alarm on my phone. But I snooze that button, I just knew that I just ignored it. And that that's a very, very common thing. And I went through that phase A few years ago as well, where I would actually say, yes, this is a priority for me, I need to do my stretch, or I need to do whatever X, Y and Z activity is. But you set your phone, and the alarm goes off, and I'm just I'm in the zone, go away, go away, I'm going to do it later. And then you forget to do it. And then at the end of the day, you're like, Ah, I forgot to do that thing. Oh, well. And then you're done. And part of what this course teaches and the actual foundation of the course is not, here's how to use a lacrosse ball to roll out your whatever, it's here's how to build the foundational habits. So you don't even have to think about or need the phone alarm. It's just something that comes to you habitually, where you will walk away from your desk and do it without even thinking about it. So that's, that's a huge barrier that I hear from a lot of people as well, like, I downloaded the seven minute activity app, and I use it for a day or two, but then I just forgot about it, or then the list will come up and then I would just stop using it. And that's not a problem with the app. That's a problem with psychology. And it's not even motivation because everybody's motivated to a certain level to wanna, you know, do something better for themselves. And there are some people that aren't, but for the most part, people have the motivation, but it's not about motivation. And it's not about willpower. It's about

Unknown Speaker 53:21

habits. It's

Zack Arnold 53:22

about patterns. I agree. It's about habits, and it's about patterns, because I mean, I I've read different accounts, and maybe this is something you could speak to as well. But I've I've read up to the point where they've charted that almost 95% of daily human behavior is habitual, and only 5% actually requires conscious thought. And whether or not that's completely accurate, I don't know. But just the mere concept of that is scary. But if you can learn how to master your habits and learn how to master behaviors where you don't need to direct energy towards them, that's where the real power starts to come in.

Unknown Speaker 53:56

And then we're where we come in is okay, you have that habit you have that pattern. What do I do with these two to five minutes that I've said set aside to get the most bang for my buck?

Zack Arnold 54:06

My sincerest apologies for the interruption in the middle of this interview. But if you are a content creator, or you work in the entertainment industry, not only is the following promo not an interruption, but listening has the potential to change your life because collaborated with ever cast is that powerful. Here's a brief excerpt from a recent interview that I did with ever cast co founders, Brad Thomas and award winning editor Roger Barton living this

Roger 54:28

lifestyle of a feature film editor has really had an impact on me. So I was really looking for something to push back against all of these lifestyle infringement that are imposed on us both by schedules and expectations. When you guys demoed ever cast for me that first time my jaw hit the floor, I'm like, Oh my god, this is what I've been waiting for. for a decade. I also

Brad 54:51

had the same reaction when I first saw ever cast two words came to mind game changer. Our goal honestly, is to become the zoom for creatives. Whatever. As you're streaming, whether it's editorial, visual effects, Pro Tools for music composition, LIVE SHOT cameras, it's consistent audio and video, lip sync, always stays in sync, whether you're in a live session where you're getting that feedback immediately, or you can't get it immediately. So you record the session and you can share those clips with people on the production team where there's no room for any confusion. It's like this is exactly what the director wants. This

Roger 55:22

is exactly what the producer wants. What matters most to me is it makes the entire process more efficient, which then translates to us as creatives who spend way too much time in front of computers, we get to shut it down, and we get to go spend time with our friends and family.

Zack Arnold 55:36

The biggest complaint and I'm sure you guys have heard this many, many times, this looks amazing. I just can't afford it. Tesla had to release the Model S before they released the model three. So by the end of the year, we are going to be releasing a sub $200 version a month of efficacy for the freelancer and indie creatives. Anyone who is a professional video creator outside of Hollywood,

Roger 55:57

I think what we've learned over the last few months is that this technology can translate to better lives for all of us. They give us more flexibility and control while still maintaining the creativity, the creative momentum and the quality of work. I cannot

Zack Arnold 56:13

stress this enough ever cast is changing the way that we collaborate. If you value your craft your well being and spending quality time with the ones you love, ever cast now makes that possible for you and me to listen to the full interview and learn about the amazing potential that ever cast has to change the way that you work and live, visit optimize yourself.me slash ever cast. Now back to today's interview. We have actually built together an entire online version of your rehab program from what I understand correct?

Unknown Speaker 56:45

Yes, sir. It's fairly comprehensive for what my patients that walk through my door get directly from me.

Zack Arnold 56:53

And basically the way that you and I have kind of coined it is it's basically having a chiropractor on demand. And I know that we probably need like one of those 14 minutes Saturday Night Live disclaimer to roll through here right now. So you know, keep that in mind when you're listening where it's not going to replace the care of a licensed physician. But at the same time, when I approached you, in the first the for a little bit of background for our relationship, you are right down the street from me, I can actually walk to your clinic, I had no idea who you were. And I was a complete and total idiot. And I was doing one of our afternoon exercise breaks when I was still working on Empire. And everybody was holding plank for a minute. And I'm like, I can hold plank for a minute. So I'm, I'm going to do something different. And I'm going to hold a tripod headstand for a minute on my head. And it didn't hurt at all. And then the next morning, I'm like, why doesn't my neck move. And I had a problem. And I had no mobility to one direction. And I could look over my right shoulder. And just it was as simple as Alright, chiropractor, Woodland Hills, your name came up, I went to go see you. And I had been to chiropractors before. And it's just kind of what you would picture you go in, and you kind of run through the assembly line of machines, and somebody says where you hurt, and they crack and you're out. And then you repeat the cycle every two weeks for the rest of your life. And the situation with you was very, very different. And I didn't realize this at the time. But you just have such an extensive background on how the body works. But you're also very intuitive with individuals. And I actually came to found out that I don't know if you coined it or somebody else did, but you're actually called the body whisperer. And to me, that sounds so gimmicky and ridiculous. But oh my god, it's so true. Because there's a completely different experience for me. And I still went through complete hell for like six months trying to do all these adjustments and just all these little exercises. And it's not like all of a sudden you touch me with a Vulcan grip, and I was saved. But I really saw the out a very different approach to the way that you put your treatment together. And I came to you and I was like, hey, I've got this idea that I wanted to do for a long time. And I've never found the right person. And I think that you and I should chat. And I said I want to build a library and you said

Unknown Speaker 59:07

I'm on board. Let's do it. Well, not only

Zack Arnold 59:09

that, but the cool thing was you're like, well, I've wanted to build a library for my patients forever. But I don't know how to like make videos and edit them and put them on a website. And I was like, Oh, well, I know somebody that can do that part. But I don't know anything about the body from like at the level that you do. I know a little bit about biomechanics, but not enough that I'm going to sell it. So I said I have all these talents. You have all these talents, expertise and education. Let's package those together. And thus the move yourself activity video vault was born. So we've spent a lot of time together over the last six months. And I want to explain to people how this library works from the ground up how you thought of it, and how somebody can actually get tremendous benefit from using this library. So

Unknown Speaker 59:54

the way the library works is it's based off of the generals that I see In my office and that, what I mean is, this isn't like you had said earlier of patient specific case, specific 100% to a tee medical evaluation. But if I took the vast majority of people who walk through my office, these are going to be the most common conditions that I evaluate, that I discuss with my patients that I break down, make sure they understand. And then we work together to correct these conditions. Obviously, the library is lacking the chiropractic adjustment, but it has all the other good stuff, right? It has all the mobility exercises, all the stability exercises. And when you you log into this library, it has a massive platform. So we've created a funnel, so that you can take this information and answer some questions about yourself mentally, and work your way through this funnel to find the solution that fits best for your condition. So very first thing is my lovely self explaining what is chiropractic because it's amazing to me that so many people still don't understand this, this awesome holistic approach to health care, reducing stress in the body, giving it what it needs, by manipulating or adjusting the spinal column, taking some stress off the nervous system and letting it heal itself. And explain the biomechanics of it, what the adjustment is, why the principles fall into place in our common life, and you just kind of have a base knowledge of where to go from there. After that, I break down the three most common types of pain that I see in my office. So we have acute and chronic pain, which means out something hurts, or Whoa, this is always sore, we have numbness and tingling. So something just doesn't feel right, we don't have full sensation there. And then we have the category of radiating pain. So somebody who has this library says, Hmm, I sound like one of these three categories. Then I go into explaining where acute and chronic pain comes from. The principles of posture and how not carrying your body correctly can cause damage to certain joints. I actually explained what pain is and how pain works in the body, and give you a general idea of how did I get here? You know, how did I get in this place where I'm really not feeling great every single day? I do the same concept for numbness and tingling. When is numbness and tingling, a very serious problem, when is it something that we can probably manage on our own. And same with radiating pain, when is the radiating pain a situation where you need to go find a doctor get checked out. And when is it something where we kind of have some bedroom, we can work on it try to get it to resolve a little bit. After you've decided which of those three categories, there's even more of a division and breaks down the specific condition or specific body area. So if we use the example of numbness and tingling, say somebody has numbness and tingling down one side of their leg and it goes above their knee. Well, that sounds like me, you would click on that category. And there's my lovely face, again, explaining how that probably happened, what's going on in the body to make that there. And again, it's not specific for every single person that ever clicks on that one specific link. But again, it's the generals. And then the most exciting part, the thing that we really, really put so much time and effort into is a real time video library, where someone is going through specific exercises to start correcting that condition right now. And this moment, when you're looking at that video, doing it with me having having myself or one of my experts explaining how to do the exercise, what it should feel like what it should look like. So that once you're done with that segment, you are a little bit closer to being a healthier person, you've made a good decision that your body has gotten some more mobility, you've gotten a little bit stronger just from going along with that video. So that's the main meat and potatoes of what we've done there. And I've gotten great feedback about it. It's it's just been such a successful venture so far.

Zack Arnold 1:04:19

Well, unfortunately, the best part of the entire video library is a part that nobody's ever going to see. which is which is which is you trying to say. And I've designed a series of exercises that go into a routine of a series it was it was quite possibly one of the most exciting moments of my life ever trying to record the series of videos. It was amazing. But anyway, I digress. But But what I what I really want to impress upon people, when I say to them, we have this activity video of all what people say to me is, oh, yeah, no, I've got like a seven minute workout app and it's like, I'll be at my desk and I'll do jumping jacks or push ups or 32nd plank or whatever it is. Yeah, no, I've got Something like that. And I'm like, No, you don't understand. This is the quickest, fastest version that you're ever going to get of your own personal chiropractic degree in 15 minutes, and it's going to tell you like, it takes 10 years of expertise, boils it down to 10 minutes and tells you exactly what buttons to push. So if there's anywhere in your body, literally, from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, where you point and say, ouch, you will walk them through this funnel of specificity in less than 15 minutes. And they're going to know exactly what they need to do. And it works like magic. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:36

it's pretty incredible the way that it's just, it's very specific. And I personally assume that every single person that logs on to this library is just as busy as I am. So I don't really have 30 to 40 minutes in my day to do a regular stretching routine, a regular rehab routine, I'm the type of person that I've got about five to seven minutes, and that's pushing it. So if I'm going to take those five to seven minutes, I'm going to make sure that they are the most specific movements that I can do to get the most bang for my buck in terms of time there. So I designed this whole library with that in mind. So if you're somebody that has a low back soreness, or low back tightness, I'm not going to give you 20 stretches that may or may not help, I'm going to give you some streamlined sniper style exercises that are going to get to the main muscle groups that are the most tight on my patients that I see. And I'm going to give you a few minutes to work through those a few minutes to get stronger, and bing bang, we're done.

Zack Arnold 1:06:44

That's exactly the way that works is you just you really feel like you become a biomechanics ninja just by watching this, where you go into the library, you're like, Oh, I heard somewhere. And then 20 minutes later, you're talking about your hip flexors, and you know, reverse flexion. And you're like, Oh my god, I know everything about the body, suddenly, what I really want to impress upon people again, and you kind of alluded to this a bit. But there's a lot of individual exercises in here that are no more than 30 to 45 to 60 seconds. Some of them are strengthening. Some are actual stretches, some of them are mobility exercises. But even then, if you were to open up a library, and it has 50, individual videos, the response everybody's going to have his Yeah, okay, I have no idea what to do, like, too overwhelming. So not only have you created this nice information funnel, but what you also did, and this was the part that I didn't even catch on to at first and you had to keep explaining to me until the light bulb went off. I'm like, Oh, that's brilliant, is we just recorded all of these individual exercises, but then we rearrange the order of them and like 25 different combinations based on the style of pain that you have. So there are over 100 different video either routines or individual exercises, but it's designed based on the pain that you have, whether it's both sides of the body, one side of the body, you might be doing foam rolling, but you might be doing in a different order and a different time based on your pain. And that was that was the next level. For me.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:13

That's the kicker. And that comes from my clinical experience I'll have I like I said, I work with the large athlete base. So a lot of my patients that walk in it, and you did too, as well, Zack, you know what a foam roller is, you've probably dabbled with it a little bit. I've rolled out my glutes, I've rolled out my IT band, I hear that a lot coming into my office, but they're still coming into my office with stiffness, soreness, pain, so they're not hitting the mark. And what I have found that is helpful for my patients is maybe you need to roll your hip flexors to the front of your upper leg on one side, but you don't need to roll it on the other side, you actually need to be rolling your glute or your butt on the other side. And so this library makes that more specific. It's not just a low back pain rollout your hamstrings, your quads and your glutes. No, as you have low back pain on the left side that kind of goes down your leg. Here's where you put the ball to release that muscle. Here's where you roll out. And then these are the exercises that you do to get stronger.

Zack Arnold 1:09:14

Yeah. And then that's the coolest thing about it is that the investment in any kind of technology is almost nothing between the foam roller and lacrosse balls, which you can either keep in your pocket, I don't really recommend you do it because you'll get funny looks like I have a little wooden bowl of lacrosse balls that I keep right on my desk for either doing forearm work hand work, or I mean some of the stuff that you do with a lacrosse ball and these videos. I remember thinking, Oh yeah, we're gonna put these videos together and you know, I already know a fair amount about biomechanics and mobility work. And then we started shooting these, and I remember my jaw dropping and I'm like, yeah, that's awesome. Like, I had no idea you could do that. But it's such simple stuff, all of which and I remember this is criteria that we talked about where I said, if somebody can't do this at work in front of a workstation, In five minutes, I'm not gonna bother shooting it like it has to fit in that criteria. And you're like, that's great, because everything fits that. Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:07

And I remember watching you sometimes see me do something, you know, being back on the other side of the camera and then slowly creep over to the corner and try to do that exercise yourself. Yeah,

Zack Arnold 1:10:19

I mean, this stuff was just so good. And that's the response that I've gotten from the members that are in the course and that are using the library so far, is they're just shocked at how easy this stuff is. But how effective it is, we're under the assumption that if we want dramatic results, it's going to require a dramatic investment of both time and money buying expensive equipment, and doing really long drawn out routines. And it really is kind of the magic button.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:46

The body is kind of like a puzzle. You know, if you find the little pieces that need to be put in the right places, you give the body what it needs, and it just really unfolds, it really becomes something different. And actually, our bodies are these really great machines. And they're very efficient. And sometimes we just need for lack of a better analogy, a little oil here and a little bit of a screw tightening there. And it really runs much, much better.

Zack Arnold 1:11:12

Yeah. And that's the thing that really works in here is like you said I was somebody that came in that I done lots of foam rolling and just general work, especially when you do the, the p90x programs, and especially p90x too, and everybody knows that I'm a total fanboy of Tony Horton, and there's been a bit of man love going on there. But in p90x two, part of the routine every single day, it's a 60 minute routine, but there's like 15 minutes of foam rolling. And it's great. But it's very general. It's the it's the gigantic muscle groups, it's doing the the traps muscles are doing the quads, or maybe the it bands, but it's not really super specific. And millions of people are doing the exact same routine. So I came in thinking, Oh, yeah, I know, I know something about foam rolling. Sure. And then I was like, Whoa, this is like the surgical approach. I was approaching this whole process with a giant axe. And you're like, No, no, here's a scalpel. And it's amazing how effective how efficient that process can be. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:07

And that comes from that clinical background, my education, my years in practice, my athletic background, you know, everything kind of rolled into one. And I do think that it was, you know, a fate that we found one another, because you had mentioned earlier, I had said, Oh, I want to make this library, it was on a to do list that I had on my computer, find someone to help with library, you know, and I had all of this in my head. So when we designed this library, we had all of the information, it was just taken straight out of my clinical practice, because this is the stuff that we use most often in our day to day practice. So the things that we see the most often the exercises that we prescribe the most often. And it just made sense to put it in a format where we could share it with more people than just those that are fortunate enough to be able to walk right in through our doors. Well, one of the things that I really want to hit a little bit further and I know you touched on it, but this is a giant revelation for me is this idea that it's not just about finding the pain points and treating them. It's also about strengthening certain parts of the body. So when we're talking about this whole ninja approach in the scalpel, it's not just oh, here's the pain, and I need to massage it with a lacrosse ball, it's there might be a point like 12 inches further away in your body or on the other side of your body. We're like we're gonna strengthen this. So this pain doesn't continue. That to me was the game changer. Oh, absolutely. And that's based off of long, long, long time, knowledge of yoga of different body movements of Eastern medicine. And we know as chiropractors, we took the knowledge of, hey, the body works really well, if you just give it what it needs. And one of those things that the body needs is stability and strength. So, for example, if somebody has a lower back issue, let's say you have low back pain on on both sides, right above the glutes right at your waist. And as a chiropractor, I teach you how to stretch out the muscles that are pulling you into a strange position and causing stress. If I don't teach you how to strengthen up your core muscles, and how to strengthen up your glutes, then the likelihood that your body's going to stay in that correct position is much, much less. And I think you had said earlier with your chiropractic experiences in the past, you know, it's it's crack here stretch here, you'll have to see me again in two weeks. You know, if you're not getting that strengthening portion, then it's true, your body's going to bounce right back into that kind of twisted area because there's nothing stopping it from going back into the incorrect position. There's no stability, there's no strength that's holding you in that aligned, strong posture. So when we progress somebody through a course of care in our office, the very first thing that we have to do, we call it a unwinding somebody. So we get them out of that twisted position. So maybe one hip is higher up than the other one shoulder is rolled in, maybe both shoulders are rolled in and the chins poking out. And we we do the stretching, we do the lacrosse ball, we do the foam roller so that they become even right to left. If I kicked you out of my office, then I said goodbye, we're done. The things that you do in your day to day life, because we all do them. It's called this industrialized nation that we live in, we sit in a car, we sit at a desk, we walk on hard cement, we wear the wrong shoes, not just ladies with our sexy heels, but men with unsupportive shoes, we end up putting too much stress on the body. And so we need some strength to kind of balance that out our lives are these big, huge balance scales, if you have too much stress, then you're going to end up moving away from wellness and towards sickness. So one of the ways that we can kind of tip those scales, and I talked about this and introductory to the library, is to give ourselves a fighting chance by adding strength to the body. And in the library. I'm talking mainly about musculoskeletal strength. So good core, good glutes good upper back strength. But there's also chemical strength, nutrition, getting rest and emotional strength, making sure that we're giving our body some time to decompress positive thoughts, giving ourselves good mantras, but you know, everything that the body needs are the strengths. And so we hit that in our office as well. And

Zack Arnold 1:16:29

what I can tell you the the greatest drawback of all this to you is that you have, for the most part lost a client, because I don't really need to go in anymore, because I'll just say, Man, you know, I'm a little tired. This is kind of weird. Oh, I'll just go to the library. And I'll take 10 minutes like oh, yeah, no, I'm much better. I don't need to go see them. So I still also go down the street because, you know, I'm just like a total glutton for massage. So I love doing deep tissue bodywork and it's not like the the touchy feely Swedish massage with the candles. It's like screaming and tears in my eyes like you're used to the wall. Yeah, exactly. So that's, that's the kind of stuff that I'll do to kind of work out all the kinks from all the training that I'm doing. But I don't really have to go in for adjustments, because I wasn't like you said, I wasn't going through that that treadmill assembly line, it was a matter of rather than it's kind of the same approach. Like if you're looking at it the way that the medical system works nowadays, and that's a whole different rabbit hole, we don't have time to go down. But they're not trying to fix the source of the sickness. They're saying, How do I cover it up with a pillar prescription and their medical doctors, their doctors of medicine. So that's their job. They're not holistic wellness practitioners. But I feel like chiropractic has gotten a bad name. Because there are a lot of people that treat chiropractic with the exact same philosophy, saying, Well, yeah, I see that you have lower back pain, and whatever, I know what's gonna happen, I'm gonna crack you here, and I'm going to stretch you here and you're gonna walk out, you're gonna feel like a million bucks. But you're not going to change any of your habits, you're going to sit the same way, you're going to behave the same way. And I'll see you again in two weeks. And that is a terrific business model.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:00

Oh, well, you know, and just a brief glancing over medical doctors versus chiropractors is, our training is completely different in the sense that as a chiropractor, I believe the body's pretty cool. I believe that it does what it's supposed to do, if we give it the materials, and medical doctors come at it as we're doomed. There's something wrong, we're missing a medication or missing an enzyme, we're missing something, we need to put a drug in there to give the body what it needs. And so if you come at it like that, then you you are dependent on the system, because you don't believe that your body can do it on its own. And with chiropractic, we believe the body can as long as we give it what it needs. And you know, in your case, and in a lot of my patients case, it needed to stop being so darn stressed out, and it needed to be strengthened. And my goal with my patients is that they don't need to see me every two weeks. I mean, I I live an active lifestyle. I personally get adjusted every three weeks because Zach and I are talking about earlier, I own more than one business. I am a CrossFit athlete. I'm an Olympic weightlifter, I put a lot of stress on my body. So my stress levels get tipped and adjustment brings that stress back down. And some people don't need that very often they're able to manage their stressors on their own. And some people, they might have a chronic short leg, they might have chronic disease, and they'll need an adjustment more often because their stress levels are higher. So everybody's different. And we try to give you the tools that fits your body, your lifestyle, your needs.

Zack Arnold 1:19:43

Well, speaking of the word stress, the last place that I want to go this is one of the most common questions that I get that I'm unable to answer. And I'm very candid when somebody asks me something and I don't know the answer. My response is I don't know. And I am asked all the time about repetitive stress in I see this question come up in Facebook groups all the time, from completely unqualified people answering them that are just other people that are like, Oh, I read this on a blog, or I saw that, or bla bla bla bla bla, let's dig into this idea of repetitive stress injuries. And for those that don't know, and you can kind of go into this further, but kind of the layman's version of it is, well, I have my arm in one position all day, and I'm clicking my mouse over and over and over arm reaching over to this lever all day long, whatever it is just this repetitive stress creating damage to your body. So can you go a little bit further into what a repetitive stress injury actually is, how it forms and then what you can do about it?

Unknown Speaker 1:20:36

Absolutely repetitive stress injuries are, I would actually say, more than the majority of my practice, I would say, upwards to 75% 80% of my practice, there's two reasons that people have a huge shock to their musculoskeletal system. It's either a macro trauma or a micro trauma. Now, a macro trauma are the big ones, a sports injury, a car accident, fall down the stairs, holding a tripod for 10 minutes, you know, whatever it might be. But the other side of it is a micro trauma. So something small and use the example of clicking a mouse all the time. With my runners, it's coming down hard on one knee again and again and again, with my CrossFit athletes that might be doing a press overhead a lot and they use one arm stronger than the other. Or somebody that, you know, gets in and out of a chair the wrong way again, and again. And again. How many times a day do we go from sit to stand, and if you're not doing that correctly, and by the way, that's what a squat truly is a sit to stand, then you're gonna end up with a micro trauma or a synonym for that is a repetitive stress injury. Now in the body, think of that not as something being completely smashed into a million pieces. That's a, like I said, a macro trauma. But the analogy that I like to think of is taking a wire hanger and bending it 100 Times up and down. That's a very small movement. But if I do that up and down, up and down 100 times the hanger is going to break. If you do the same thing to your body, if you hinge your lower back incorrectly by getting out of that chair, up and down, up and down 100 times in that one spot, the low backs gonna break. So it's a mass sum of a very bad habit again, and again. And again. Now, with my people that sit at a computer all day long, and you're clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking, you have to continue to do that, right, that's your job, you're clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking well when you're doing a repetitive stress injury. And I'm going to use the mouse as an example. Because it's very realistic, you are essentially strengthening one very specific part of your forearm every single minute of the day. And I can't have you stopped doing that, because that's your job. That's your livelihood. That's your living. But I can explain to you, hey, look at this muscle. Look how overused this muscle is. To fix this, we need to remove the stress from that muscle, whether that's through stretching, whether that's through self massage, getting a professional massage, having a chiropractic adjustment to the elbow, the wrist of the hand to bring that stress down. And then we need to strengthen the opposing or opposite muscle group. So if you're clicking, clicking, clicking, then I need to work on the muscle on the other side of the forearm. And this always blows Zach's mind, every single time he'll say I have pain here. And I'll point to the opposite side of the body. And I'll say it's because you're weak here. And then I give exercises to strengthen up that opposite side of the body. So my patients learn to kind of look at the opposite side when something's uncomfortable. But think of the wire hanger, we go back to that stress in one area over and over and over again. If you're not using that area correctly, that's gonna end up popping, cracking, breaking. So we have to just basically disperse that stress equally throughout the body and bring that strength level up so that it doesn't really irritate the body as much. Is that a pretty easy way to make sense of the RSI?

Zack Arnold 1:24:33

Yes, I think that the hanger analogy is fantastic. I'm totally going to steal that for the rest of my life and use it like I designed it myself and I'm an expert. That is it myself. I

Unknown Speaker 1:24:43

stole that from somebody

Zack Arnold 1:24:44

to hang the hanger is the perfect analogy. And what I will tell people just from a layman's perspective, not knowing as nearly as much about biomechanics as you do, but I've learned enough to know that it really doesn't matter what your posture is. What's your position Is it there could you could have the best ergonomic mouse on the planet. But if you're doing the same action all day long, in the best position on the planet, you're going to develop all the same issues. So my advice is always just switch up your environment, so you're not doing the same activities all day long. And if we're talking about the mouse, you can get a vertical mouse, you can get a horizontal mouse, you can get a trackball, you can get a keyboard mouse if there's so many different things you can get. But if you only have one tool, you still have to perform the same action. So like you were saying, if you're clicking with your index finger over and over, if you're going to go ahead and get a different type of mouse, let's say a trackball, and now you're spinning the trackball, with your middle finger over and over, the problem is just going to migrate, you're just moving it, it's like basically, you have this giant pile of garbage in the middle of your kitchen floor, you're not taking the garbage out of the house, you're just taking a broom and putting in one corner of the room, then you're sweeping into the oven for a while then it goes behind the fridge, the garbage isn't gone. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:25:56

yep. And the garbage is the stressor. You know, if we get too much of a stressor, and we don't just take a little piece of garbage and get it out of there every once in a while then that that piles up. And that's where our trauma comes from.

Zack Arnold 1:26:07

Exactly. And that's one of the reasons that I have the lacrosse ball sitting on my desk. So I can always be doing these different exercises like you show the wrist extensor strengthening exercise, which is just using a rubber band to do the opposite of what a hand gripper do where you're actually doing the opposite exercises. And that was one of those jaw dropping moments where I started doing and I'm like, Oh my god, I can already feel my pain going away is that

Unknown Speaker 1:26:30

simple rubberband right out of my hand and did it right then and there. And you were so impressed with that. And I will never forget that.

Zack Arnold 1:26:38

Yeah. And now that's, that's part of my toolkit, I take it everywhere that I go where like, right now I'm looking at my desk at home. And I have a couple of those kind of gooey squishy stress balls, I have lacrosse balls, which are very, very hard there. But for anybody that doesn't know, they're about the size of a tennis ball, but they're much harder. So it's like just imagine the equivalent of somebody digging their elbow into during a massage. That's a lacrosse ball. But then I have a whole set of rubber bands that have different levels of tension with different colors. So that's one of my habits that I've developed is when I'm watching footage, if I'm watching a video, whatever it is, I'm doing that wrist extensors strengthening, and I have not experienced any pain in my forearms or my elbows or my wrist for months. And I was one of those people that I got to the point where I was saying, I don't even know the name of the type of doctor but somebody that specializes in the hands and the wrists. And I was told that I had cysts in my right wrist and I needed surgery. He said the only way we can solve this problem was with surgery. And I said there's got to be a better way like I didn't injured it's not like somebody took a sledgehammer and hit my wrist like I know this is from some type of repetitive stress. I just didn't know enough about how to reverse it. But as I started to reshape my environment, change the tools that I was using, I have zero pain, I was at the point where I couldn't even do a single push up, because I couldn't put any weight on my right hand. And I couldn't even put it in push up position with any weight on it. And now I can bust out 100 pushups and I don't feel anything in my wrist. Just because I know where those specific buttons are that need to be pushed to reverse these effects, decrease that stress and increase that strength, you just got to make it specific to the body area just like we do in that video library. Exactly. So we this has basically just been a 45 minute long giant infomercial, about the move yourself activity video Vol. But I really wanted to have a resource that I could send people to, because everybody just assumes the activity videos are no different than any other seven minute or 10 minute workout where you just do this or that in front of your desk and you're more active and it's so completely different. It's so much more scientific. So I just wanted this one stop shop where people are like, Oh, now I get it. Now I see how this is so different and so useful. So that having been said as always, whether via Skype that works when it chooses to or in person in, you know, my back office shooting a bunch of videos, it is always a pleasure to chat with you.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:03

Absolutely. We've had some good times and I can only see many, many more to come as we bring education information to so many people out there that really just need it.

Zack Arnold 1:29:13

Absolutely. And before I let you go I want to make sure that people know where to find you because you've just created this brand new handy dandy awesome websites. Where can people go to learn more about you and see your new cool website? Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:29:25

my office is located in Woodland Hills, California Woodland Hills is in the Los Angeles area. And we are called Health and Human Performance. So to find me online, the best way to find us is h HP cairo.com h HP is for Health and Human Performance. Cairo is short for chiropractic.com great website looks great. We're so excited to launch that one yes

Zack Arnold 1:29:50

as you should be. And for anybody that's listening that did not come through my podcast or my website to have a crack at the move yourself activity video vault. You can Just visit optimize yourself.me and you'll get everything you need there to get started. So it has been an absolute pleasure. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:09

Absolutely anytime you need me I am here.

Zack Arnold 1:30:14

Thank you for listening to this episode of The optimize yourself podcast to access the shownotes for this and all previous episodes, as well as to subscribe so you don't miss future interviews just like this one. Please visit optimize yourself. That means slash podcast. And a special thanks to our sponsors ever cast and arrow driven for making today's interview possible to learn more about how to collaborate remotely without missing a frame. And to get your real time demo of ever cast in action, visit optimizer shelf.me slash ever cast and to learn more about Ergo driven and my favorite product for standing workstations that total Matt stick around. They're coming up next. Now if you're working from home and you're looking for ways to better manage your time, your energy and your creativity to weather the storm, I have packed two of my most popular online programs into what I've called my working from home Survival Guide. It contains both my four part masterclass on how to build a habit of deep work, which has over 90 minutes of video training, exercises and worksheets to help you build a distraction free work environment, even if you're stuck at your kitchen table, and also to help combat the aches and pains that come with being stuck in one place. I've also included my move yourself activity video vault, which contains over 90 short, easy to follow bonus exercises that will help you stay active and focused and avoid the inertia that comes with being quarantined at home in front of a computer. If you would like access to both of these programs, free of charge was no trial periods, no credit card info required and no funny business. Just visit optimize yourself.me slash Survival Guide. Thank you for listening, stay safe, healthy, insane, and be well. This episode was made possible for you by you guessed it airgo driven the creators of the Toko Matt, my number one recommended product if you're interested in moving more and not having sore feet, your height adjustable or standing workstation. Almost every new person that I meet in this industry starts our conversation with Hey, I got a topo map because of you. It's changed my life. Thank you. Listen, standing desks are only great if you're actually standing well. Otherwise you're just fighting fatigue and chronic pain. Not like any other anti fatigue mat. The Toko is scientifically proven to help you move more throughout your day, which helps reduce discomfort and also increases your focus and your productivity. I'm literally standing on one as I read this, and I don't go to a single job without it. And if you're smaller and concerned the topo map might be too big, or you simply don't have the floorspace well there's a tobacco mini for that. To learn more visit optimize yourself.me slash tobacco. That's t o p o