Ep206: Career & Life Advice from The Office Director & Producer | with Jen Celotta

Jen Celotta

Know what your passion is, know what lights you up know what creates the sparkle in your eye doesn't have to be your career could be a hobby could be something you love to do on the side, just know it. I think there's too many people that don't know it

Zack Arnold

I'm here today with Jen Celotta, who's a writer, a director and a producer for both television and now as we may discuss a little bit later, an animated feature. Your three most notable credits are of course, The Office, Cobra Kai, which, you know, we may have something in common or has may have crossed in the past. And now Abbott Elementary, but most importantly, and no discredit to your past experience. But by far the most notable thing you have ever done in your entire career is playing a Schrute. How exciting is it to say that you can officially call yourself a member of the Schrute family.

Jen Celotta

It is by far the best thing I've ever done. I I wanted to be a Schrute so badly. I love Dwight, I love the fruits and on the office as much as I love writing as much as I love directing, I was obsessed with being a Schrute I would, as you know, with the office, Greg Daniels would put the writers in roles and I never got a super juicy role. But they would offer me waitress and you know, nurse and passerby, and I said Schrute or nothing. For five years.

Zack Arnold

We might be talking about the idea of playing a game of chess with your career instead of a game of checkers. And there's a game of chess right there. But frankly, after playing a Schrute in the finale, like how do you even go on with your career? Like how do you wake up in the morning knowing you're never going to top that?

Jen Celotta

I yeah, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm gaming for? I don't know it's over. But yeah, I there was a there was a gift of John Krasinski at some point, and I was in the background of it as a shirt. And I was like, Alright, now I'm in gifts, like what else? What else can I do?

Zack Arnold

Yeah, it doesn't get any better than that. Or perhaps it does. And we're going to talk all about that today. But Jen, it is a pleasure to have you here, you and I have have had the experience more than once of being locked in a small dark editing room solving the many myriad of challenges that come along with putting together the show Cobra Kai, and I know everybody watches the finished product. And they think, Oh, this looks like a fun little show to work on. People have no idea what a complicated show it is to put together. And somehow you make it look simple. So I will I want to talk more about your creative process. Today, I want to talk about things as far as like how to manage your mental health and how to you know really address the fact that perhaps the thing that's standing in our own way in life more than anything else, probably ourselves, you know, look in the mirror, you're gonna see what your biggest obstacle is, and just how you use your process to kind of work through those things, and more. But where I want to get started is is kind of the the first place that everybody wants to get started is I want to know the origin story. So let's talk a little bit more about your origin story and how you became the Jen Celotta.

Jen Celotta

Thank you for putting the in front of it. So I grew up in Maryland, and I came from a very sciency family. I was very much interested in science and kind of nerdy when I was a kid. My dad is a retired electron physicist who had a nanotechnology NanoFab and Nano Lab at a place called NIST. And my mom's was just just retired child and adolescent psychologist, and my brother, mechanical engineer, I just kind of went to adventures in science when I was little, I loved science, but I also loved comedy. I begged to stay up and watch Fawlty Towers and Letterman, and I just, I, I just loved humor. And and I would, you know, if I would be helping with dinner, I would do a character of a waitress. And I would make stories up all the time. I made up a very complicated story of a counselor at my school in elementary school, I said that she was getting engaged. And then she was getting married. And then she was going on a honeymoon in Africa. And I made up this whole story so that my parents, I didn't remember this. But my parents said they ran into her years later and they asked about it. And she said none of it ever happened. Somehow I got my brother to go along with it as well. So I think imagination was a big part of my childhood. I just really loved it. I started taking improv classes. I was really obsessed with improv. And I knew and I find this strange, but I don't know if it is strange. I knew from a super early age that I didn't want a nine to five job that was the same every day. I like really knew I wanted that before I almost knew I knew I liked creativity, imagination. I loved humor. I love storytelling, but I just felt like if I had to go into the same job every day and do the exact same thing. I couldn't do it and I think that I had that awareness at like 10 And I find that oh, you know, I don't know it is still is a thing to this day. But that was sort of kind of what clicked into me first. Yeah. So then I went to Boston University and study television and film, did an internship in London on a TV show, had some internships in Boston, moved out and had the TV Academy internship and got on Home Improvement a long time ago. So that was sort of that was sort of that was sort of it, I could tell a story about what my first day in production because I think it might interest you, and also kind of horrifying.

Zack Arnold

All right, I definitely want to hear all about your first day in production. But you just fast forwarded through so many amazing things. I love it. When I ask people the origin story, like, Well, I went to school here, and then I did this thing. And then you know, I did a, b, and c. And now I'm here and I'm successful. And I'm like, It's gonna take me 90 minutes just to fill all the gaps in your story, right? If any of them, I'm sure you could the two things that I'm really interested by just as far as where you ended up is that number one must have had fascinating dinner table conversations with all the people in your family. But number two, I would imagine that given you have such highly analytical minds, whether it's about psychology, whether it's about engineering, or physics, or whatever it might be, even though it's not to say the people that do work like that aren't creative, but it's a different part of the brain. I would imagine that it wasn't as easy as it could have been to all of a sudden be the actor or the creative, the writer in a household full of quote unquote, professionals.

Jen Celotta

You know, it's fascinating. Yes, yes. And no, like, what was really interesting was, I do think my parents who, you know, both got their doctorates, and we were very educational path. They were worried, especially my dad of like, how am I going to make money at this, I think that was the thing that was really difficult as like parents wanting me to wanting me to pursue my dreams, wanting me to do whatever I wanted to do, but also being nervous about that. But there was a lot of imagination in my family. Like, when I would tell stories, my brother would come up with inventions at the table, and my dad would encourage that. So there was a lot of like, thinking about new ideas, even though some were in science, and some were kind of comic. But so yeah, so it was like it. And I, there was I have a friend, Lindsay Duran, who's a producer, fantastic producer, who works often in animation. And she also is a ghost writer for a lot of movies, she helps with story, she gets paid to do story on huge movies, but nobody like really knows that it's a quiet cake. And she wrote a book about like, what did you get from your parents? Like, what is the thing that when you think about your parents, what do you feel like you got from them? And I was flipping through the book. And a lot of them were like, remember to put air in your tires? And never some of them were like, No, your place. And I felt like my takeaway from them is you can do anything, which I didn't realize how extraordinarily lucky I was to have that as a beginning. She told me JJ Abrams, parents said did the same thing with him that he's and his answer was exactly the same. But a lot of the answers were what parents instilled that you couldn't do. So I was so lucky to the point where I think when I started to struggle in some class in college, I call them and I'm like, I can't do everything. Like I can't do anything. There's some things I can't do. I mean, clearly, there's much I can't do. But I think that the idea that I could pursue what I wanted to pursue and have that freedom was like a big gift. And I took it for granted, because I have friends who feel like they're a little bit more in boxes.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I think that it's very common for people to often feel like they're on somebody else's path, until they realize how detrimental that is to their health and their well being. So there's no question that that was a gift to have been told you can pursue anything that you want, and you can do anything. What I'm curious about is do you feel that by the age of 10, when you realize I don't want to do an office and work nine to five, which, by the way, the irony of that and the show that you've worked on, right? But given the you are so young at that point where most people don't even make this discovery, either ever, or until they're in their 30s or 40s. And to be perfectly frank, I built an entire business model on helping people when they have this discovery, realizing, Oh, crap, I'm 40. And I didn't realize this isn't what I want to do with my life. Right. But having said that, do you think that that just came from you internally? Or do you think that message also either came from your parents or from the model that your parents created? Because I would guess they were largely going to offices and doing the same thing? Nine to five?

Jen Celotta

This is fascinating. You're asking such good questions. Yes. I think like, I think what's interesting is they did have more of a nine to five job. My mom had a private practice so she could kind of you know, you know, do you think she also taught a little bit but she could kind of coordinate her hours. Both of my parents liked challenge and they like to be, they like to be pushed, and my dad I had both did physics and then he kind of was doing more he was doing scanning tunneling microscopy, and then he was doing like nanotechnology. And then he was doing management. So he within his field kind of bumped around. So dif did I was more of the black sheep have exactly what you're saying they were more but their, their their temperaments were to take on things. And this is a thing that I think is extremely important take on things that they were passionate about, they didn't do. And I completely understand the privilege of being able to do what you want to do you know what I mean, I didn't have to worry about my health, I didn't have to worry about being able to afford maybe to go to a college that could set me up for an internship that could get me in the door. So I know how many things I am so grateful that happened to me. But I constantly felt like I needed to follow the thing that really lit me up. And and they both do that in spades. And so and my brother took a little bit of a path into a little bit more of I'm good at this. And I can make money at this and career, and then did it and thought, Oh, I'm not as excited about this and made that change in his 20s. But then went back to school and got his master's in engineering and then went for that. So we all sort of found it eventually,

Zack Arnold

well, that I've had this conversation multiple times with other whether it was various experts or just regular people that are working in the industry just to get their take on it. And in the world of careers, and the world of you know, creating your vision and manifesting your destiny and all the other stuff that's out there in the world. Follow your passion is a very divisive topic, you never would have guessed it. Well, there are some people that say, Oh, you absolutely must follow your passion. And it's the only way to create the life that you want. And then there are other people that say, following your passion is the worst possible advice you could give somebody because what if somebody is passionate about something that they neither have the skill, nor can they create a career or an income out of it? So that's your advice. I want to dissect this a little bit. Because it can be dangerous.

Jen Celotta

I said it probably two generally because I do follow it up. And it really depends on who I'm talking to. And this would this I think would be what I would say to that, know what your passion is, know what lights you up, know what creates the sparkle in your eye doesn't have to be your career, could be a hobby could be something you love to do on the side, just know it. I think there's too many people that don't know it, you can know it and not go for it for financial reasons. You have kids and you can't afford to become a ventriloquist. When you have, you know, 15 kids, and there's not a lot of money in ventriloquism, I'm sorry, if there is I don't know, maybe

Zack Arnold

I'm gonna have to get a ventriloquist on the show to really dissect my career. That could be interesting,

Jen Celotta

find it and report back because it's possible. But I do think you have to be practical, but I bumped into way more often people who don't know what they love, because they immediately start to think of other things besides what they enjoy. And for me, it's possible. So I'll say a couple of things here. It's possible that partly, I have ADD have a bit of anxiety and OCD. I think that with ADHD and procrastination, sometimes the challenge is like the excitement of the challenge needs to be there or I won't do a great job, like I have to be challenged, I have to be it has to be hard, it has to be tough. It has to be inventive, or I key I lose steam. So I've sort of noticed that about myself. So maybe for me, it's even more important. But I found that so many people are not in touch with what it is that they love. I've gotten so many people who are on a path, like you were saying, but this is just happened to me personally. And I find out that they're in it for you know, 12 years into a path. They're not interested in it. And then, you know, maybe it's kind of one friend, I have one friend who is going to give you a pharmacist. And she was really stuck on deciding whether she wanted to go into research or she wanted to go, you know, think do clinical or be a pharmacist and like a Walgreens or whatever. And she was stuck, stuck stuck in for like a year she was stuck. And then finally I asked her, you know, because I knew she was stuck. I was like he's a possibly you don't want to be a pharmacist and she just like started crying, you know what I mean? But like he at that moment, it's like it was tucked down in her. And then we started talking about it, and she's crying and she's like, and then I'm trying to figure out she's ridiculously low. I mean, he has loans $200,000 in loans that she needs to pay back. So there's going to be a practical component to she's gonna have to probably be a pharmacist for a while to pay back the money to whatever. But after an hour of talking about that, and which way she can do things, and what's the most interesting way she can find to do the thing that she didn't really want to do in the first place. I almost didn't ask this question, but I was. I thought we've already kind of shaken her a little. I said, Do you know what it is you want to do? And she kind of looked up to me and her eyes lit up for the first time I've ever seen. And she said yes. And I was like, what is it? And she said, fashion. So here's the thing, she found a job in pharmacy that she likes. She's trying to work for a fashion brand and her weekends and in her free time, and if she can ever make the jump, she will. But she's able to realize what it is. And I think realizing what it is doesn't mean you need to go for it. But I think so many people don't realize what it is. And they're and and so yeah, but I would be curious to hear the people who think it's a, is that just a bad idea? Because maybe they don't have the skill or the ability and they have financial responsibilities, then you just can't You can't do it. But I think it's better to know and not do it than to not ask yourself that question.

Zack Arnold

Yeah I love all of this. And one of the things that I've been discovering about just myself over the course of the last couple of years, and this is something that we will eventually relate to the work that you do as a writer and a director and a producer, but I'm going to make this about me for a second. You know, my microphone, my show, I'm going to make it about me, what I found is that I've actually done several conversations recently, with people in completely different fields where they've all said the same thing to me based on the challenge that I'm running into. They're like, Are you writing in? Are you journaling? I'm like, No, I don't write in a journal. And they were they were talking to me about using that as a process. And then I had a guest recently, if it's like, you've been writing a weekly newsletter for eight years, and you've released over 300 podcasts. Do you think that maybe that's your way of working through life and better understanding it I was like, like giant lightbulb moment. And I say all that because I workshop ideas by having amazing and fascinating conversations with people. I've been trying to solve this equation, should you follow your passion. And I think you just helped me clarify something. And I want to workshop this with you. I don't think it's just like, if you're going to choose a career path, you have to follow your passion, I do think there's a danger in that. I think you have to design a life around fueling whatever that passion is. And in your friends case, she can be a pharmacist, such that the means justify the ends of fueling her passion for fashion, which for now means she could be using a little bit of her paycheck to work towards learning more about fashion or taking classes on fashion. But when you have that creative side of you, if you tamp it down and you don't feel it, you are miserable, your well being plummets, the anxiety skyrockets, I can very much relate to the ADHD, and how if something isn't really challenging, and fascinating to me, it bores me to tears, like literally bores me to tears. And I shake from anxiety saying I cannot do this for one more minute. So like, for example, if I were to follow my passion and make money following the passion, I'd have to find a way to make a living being a professional ninja. I don't know if you've ever seen me on a ninja course that shit is never going to happen. Nobody ever said, Oh my God, look at that athlete. They're like, Oh, look at the old bald guy that's doing cool ninja stuff. Good for him. Right?

Jen Celotta

I don't think so I've seen you, you are fantastic. And if there was ever a ninja editor you would crush

Zack Arnold

well, that that I very much appreciate. But the idea being that if I took that out of my life, even though I don't make any money doing it, it feels who I am. And it's helped me workshop and identify what's the process for achieving credibly difficult goals. So I think it's really you need to make sure like you said, you want to follow what lights you up, and you want to feel your passion, but it doesn't mean your career has to be your passion, if it can be great.

Jen Celotta

It definitely doesn't have to. And I think that's where people get stuck. And I think that that's you can be work life balance, where you want to have a nine to five job that something that you just like because it brings in the money and then you can spend more time with your kids, you can spend more time traveling, you can spend more time doing whatever you want I 100% I just think it's like I just run into so many people that you know, are so out of touch with what it is that they want, because they've never asked themselves that and I think it's better to ask yourself and maybe not be able to pursue it in the most ideal way but at least to be in touch with it. You my my grandfather started sculpting when he was 80 Do you know what I mean? That I love when I see that kind of stuff when I see people like who have never taken an art class and I've never thought they could do that decide, you know, this seems like fun. And then just kind of it Yeah, can be a hobby can be can be a you know, just something you read about you know, it can be anything but I think that you should honor that side of you if you're lucky enough to be able to I know that there's situations where you can't and I completely know that it's a blessed situation for me to be able to follow what I love.

Zack Arnold

And I think that another thing that's so important here is it's not just a matter of a lot of people haven't asked the question of themselves. What am I passionate about or what lights me up? I feel like a lot of people don't feel like they're allowed to.

Jen Celotta

Oh 100% Yes, yes. They either haven't asked the question. They don't think they can or they so there was something that I learned from my dad when we were doing something on the office, we were trying to decide whether Jim's proposals to Pam should have sound or no sound. It was this unbelievable this discussion that went over about two months we had we built a $300,000 set because we couldn't find a gas station set to have Jim get down on one knee and proposed to her. And we had this rain coming down. And basically there were people on two sides of this, the writers room was split down the middle Greggs Daniels family was split down the middle, he had a list of people and his wife and one kid was on one side and the two other kids were on the other side of whether or not we should just hear the rain, see Jim go down for this moment and just kind of imagine what he says to her. Because what is he going to say that so different from what other people do or hear it. And we went back and forth and back and forth. And my dad talked to me about the difference between offensive and defensive decision making. And defensive dis offensive decision making is where again, I'm blessed and fortunate enough to spend a lot of my time you know, but I do things. In addition to being lucky, I do things to be able to continue to do what I'm doing. But he said with authentic decision making, it's what do you think is good? What do you want? What is your instinct? What lights you up? What are you feeling? What's your gut all of those defensive? Is? What are the what is the audience gonna think? How are people going to feel the critics and the like it? Everybody's been waiting so long for this, you're going to do this and you're going to what if it's the wrong thing? What if it's, and immediately, I knew that I have some friends who operate a little bit more than that for a lot of their decisions. Just thinking about the reasons why not? And again, there's a very valid reasons why not but don't spend any time in the kind of what is the reason? What is my gut? What is my instinct? What is my? Yeah, so it's like, and I kind of love personally, as a friend. I've only seen good things happen when people get more in touch with that side. I haven't seen Well, now I know. And I can't do it. Oh, no, I haven't seen I haven't quite seen that because it's something that starts to happen in some form. But I don't know

Zack Arnold

what's interesting to me. And I'm afraid that this is going to end up being a 17 part podcast. If we get too deep into the office. Specifically, we clearly want to talk about it some I'm already fascinated by this conversation. We haven't even gotten to the first day on the job yet. And is still in there having forgotten about it's not it's not gonna be as good as the office. No, no, trust me, we're gonna get there. Well, we're gonna cover it for sure. But what's interesting to me, and this is actually helping me better understand now what's different about the office, right? This this, there's something about it that I think even the best of us have a hard time putting our finger on. And I'm gonna give you two very specific examples that I just thought of based on this conversation that you were having, because it's not just about Well, it's good characters, or it's good writing or good actors, all that matters. But the heuristics that we use, as writers and creators make a big difference. And using this offensive versus defensive creativity means that lead to number one, the decision that we're going to confidently not have sound for the proposal. And there's one other thing and I don't know if this had a million back and fourth as well. But with the Jim and Pam storyline at the very, very end, we never know it was on the little letter that was in the teapot. Right? And I've heard stories behind the scenes from Jen afterwards about what actually was there. But to this day, it's just like, but I want to know what was on it. I bet that was a discussion.

Jen Celotta

So it is a discussion, crazily. And I, if you were just thinking this, you are not the first when I talk about this story, people think we did do it without sound. We did it with sound. We did it with sound, but I was strongly on the no sound side. And I want to tell you a story about that in a second. But what what they did is they save that moment, the tea pot already had that which I love that we don't get to know I love that because there's some part of it that relies on the audience's imagination. My idea for the no sound is what is what is Jim going to say? Then we then somebody else is gonna say he's down on one knee, and it seems so beautiful and respectful, have a private moment, to have us not be able to hear just that little bit to hear the pouring rain, it's really far away. It's on a long lens, you know, just to have that if he was gonna say something super specific, you know, but it why he wasn't, you know, so I think that that sort of pointed to that. But they did save that moment for when Pam says goodbye to Michael. She didn't have her microphone on and she'd said she won't say what she said. But she basically said goodbye to Steve.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, and I love all that. And what I've really learned and this is something that I kept asking myself while editing Cobra Kai, because it's such a unique and different experience. And I've said this even to John Josh and Hayden. I've said this publicly this show has no business being as good as it is like come on, like five consistent seasons of taking the Karate Kid from 30 plus years ago, like the show should have sucked from the pilot. It just should have like, I hate watch the pilot and hate watch the first season and I'm like, Alright, fine, this is awesome. Now I decided to have to work on it right? But it had no business being that good and I've really tried to understand what's the difference? Instant. It's all about the ability of the people that are in charge creatively of making choices. Because there's a million and a half choices throughout any given day. And one of the core foundations that I share with people and it doesn't matter if it's writing or editing or directing or becoming a Ninja Warrior, like I was giving this lesson to my Spartan racers that I'm training for their first Spartan Race, how you do anything, is how you do everything. Right. And that applies to how you create the entire life around you. Which by the way, I'm hoping is the perfect segue to the first day in your job. And going back to being a PA.

Jen Celotta

This is interesting, while you're gonna, there may be some judgment in here of how I did this, but it is how I do everything. But it was I was an in an intern or a PA in Boston on a commercial. And it was my first day in production. I think I was between my junior and senior year, I'm not quite sure of college. There were two interns or feminists, APA, I think we were pa sort of two pas, we were going to, there was a lake and they wanted to shoot a house and they wanted to shoot the lake and then the house. So the first thing that happened day one as they asked myself and another PA to get into a canoe and to get the gunk off the lake. So we get into the lake get into the canoe. And we start kind of scooping it up and putting into the new canoe, because that's how it's gonna work. There was a producer who just started screaming at us, that's not what we were supposed to do. We were supposed to hit the hit the gunk with the paddle. We knew that there was no way to actually make this happen with what they were telling us to do. However, this was like the first day, you know, you want to not in an unreasonable way, but you want to try to be able to do a good job and get the job done. And if they're asking us to do something crazy, we wouldn't have. So we basically started scooping it in and slamming it but basically scooping when they weren't looking because we needed to get rid of it. And we also would like to have this recommendation for later. But then the next thing that we had to do, the next thing that I had to do was they wanted to shoot through a tree, but there were no trees in the right position. So they wanted me to run into the forest and grab a tree branch. And this haunts me based on what I'm working on now. But I ran into the forest. And I was like what kind of forest doesn't have branches on the ground? Where are the branches and I'm like running around. And this is like fast. I mean, I'm just like I have to find a branch I have to find a branch. Sorry about this. But I grab a branch from a tree and I start twisting and twisting and twisting and trying to get it off. And there's like screaming like we need a branch we need branch a bit the branch off the tree, a bit a branch off the tree to get it to them. And then they shot through the branch shot over the lake shot to the house and they were happy now. What does that say about me? If they had asked me to do anything critic ridiculous or any sort of like, obviously like me too, or anything like that hard? No, like hard. No, you respect yourself. I also think that probably I shouldn't have bid the tree. But But I tried to figure out a way to do the job that I was asked to do in a good way that I could do it. And i This way is a weird thing to say above and beyond because I was destroying a tree. But you know what I mean? Like I was really trying to get them what they wanted. But also there was a tiny bit of navigating, not screaming back at the producer. That's not gonna work at the first step day one anyway.

Zack Arnold

But essentially, you decided that whatever it takes, we're going to make this shot work. Even though you weren't setting the shot. You weren't the director, the writer, the producer, it's, I understand that in order for them to get the best shot. I gotta clean up all the muck on the lake and I need to break a tree branch off or in your case, literally bite it. Right? I'm glad that your dad isn't a dentist, everybody would have had a field day with my grandpa was my Grandpa Grandpa was you know, so I'm sure that they were very upset about that as well. But realizing that whatever it takes to get the shot and tell the story. And it sounds like that trend is pretty much continued from day one of your job.

Jen Celotta

I learned early on and I already did this, but it's exactly what you said is how you do something is how you do everything. And what I saw was a number of PAs were constantly when a writer would come out and ask them what they wanted to do. They would say I want to be a writer and they'd say, Can we read one of your scripts and he said I had I have 30 scripts, they're all great. And basically what I found out is on home improvement. I was an intern assistant, Pa an intern pa assistant writer's assistant and a writer for the last few years my show so that the viewers that show so it was one my first show and I was able to do that and basically they saw my I guess comedic sensibility and they saw that I cared but they basically said that when I was a PA, I was doing everything with the care or excitement or passion because I didn't have to manufacture that and so when other People say, How do I do this, like, I don't want to do this and I wanted to do it. I mean, I was so grateful to be have a foot in the door in the industry, I was working with good people, like one of my first things was they said they didn't want to really figure out what Wilson said and did in his yard, the guy with the fence, and I, I did it. So I spent my time, you know, doing assistant errands and then doing that, but I just threw myself into it. And I loved it. And but I didn't have to pretend I loved it in order to try to get what I want. And I truly loved it. And I just think neither something's wrong with me. Or just whatever it is, it worked to my advantage. Because then they said, Well, we give her something else, she's gonna attack it with the same, you know, skill set, or whatever.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, that just that goes a little bit deeper for me into one of the core pieces of advice that I often give people earlier in their career, where they're so hyper focused on what the show is that they need to be working on, or this job or whatever. And there is a certain point where this advice doesn't apply anymore. But especially in the early days of your career, I really believe that where you're doing the job, and the people around whom you're doing your job is more important than what you're doing. Because if you display character, and you display how you do something they will notice, and they will put you in the place where you provide them the most value

Jen Celotta

100% That is so cool. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I tell people that too, but not as eloquently.

Zack Arnold

Well like I said, I worked through all this stuff and workshop it every single day all day and coaching and in the podcast. So, you know, I found a way to say it more succinctly. If we go back 100 episodes, I probably said it in a really roundabout shitty, you know, total nonsense way. Perfect. So another curious question that I have, I haven't even really gotten to my agenda yet. I just I'm fascinated by talking to you. And I know that you as a TV director, you probably have lunches with editors, like three days a week, but I still like one of my favorite lunches ever was the first day that you and I met on episode 208 of Cobra Kai, I still remember the day we had lunch and just loved it. And glad we're finally getting this on the record. But one of the other things I'm fascinated by just as far as who you've become and the work that you've done, do you think that it's a total coincidence, just based on who you know, being in the right place at the right time that you knew by age 10 You never wanted to work a nine to five and be in an office. And the defining job of your career is about the misery of working nine to five in an office.

Jen Celotta

I think that I think that I was able to thrive there because I have that unbelievable frustration. And I feel like like even in writing, if I feel like somebody calls me to write a movie where it's just so predictable. I feel like this is I hear myself saying this when I'm just gonna stop saying it. But I again realize how lucky and privileged I am. Because I feel like there's just walls coming up around me when I feel like I get bored and I get caught. I feel claustrophobic. And like, one of the things I gave the turn, a lot of me went into the office and that God stories would just come from my life and go in there and one was there was a cold open where this little cube was bouncing around the screen. Oh, we all know that episode. Oh, yes, I saw it bounce in the corner. But I was waiting forever to see it. Nobody was in the room. And nobody believed I saw it. And I was telling everybody that I saw it. So then I was like, how do I make this into a cold open and I thought everyone's going to be cheering and excited. But you find those. I spent a lot of my life when I was sort of bored in situations, using trying to find small little moments of beauty or humor in things that were just very, you know, very small, you know, I felt like smaller things had more meaning to me, people being stuck together, people kind of having to get to know each other because of proximity is very interesting to me as well. So I think yeah, I think that I was lucky enough to get on that show. I wrote a short story that got me on that show. Actually, it was about a woman who fell in love with the middle of a man and I can I was going to talk about the process of actually writing that because it's part of my like how to creatively get keep yourself on track and help yourself. Can actually I'll just stop and tell you that tiniest little bit of that now is that I was trying I was in between shows. I wanted to write something original. I was scared because I had been writing other people's characters for so long. And I think my fear was what if I don't have anything to say like, right? What if I thought I did because I was doing characters when I was younger, but I just been writing other people's characters for so long. Starting to learn about story learning about characters through being in rooms, seeing what works, what doesn't work, but what do I have to say? And I said I was going to write eight hours a day and it wasn't happening. And then I said I was gonna write six hours a day and it wasn't happening. And my mom kept saying, make tiny goals. Make a goal where you can when you have to make a goal where you can win. So So I was like I'm doing four hours a day, three hours a day, two hours a day. It was not happening. And this is embarrassing, right? This is embarrassing. My professional right? Everyone paid for like 10 years to write at this point. She told me to do 10 minutes a day and I laughed at her for about five months. And then fine but I wasn't getting anything done and I was stressed there wasn't getting anything done. I finally sat down for 10 minutes. And nothing came out that first day. But I sat down and I was so proud that I sat down. I was truly actually not kidding, proud. Then the second day, I sat down and I was at a coffee shop. And I was like looking at someone who was buying a coffee, and I saw their feet. And I was wondering how much you could tell about someone from their feet. And then I sort of thought it was a little cliche. And then I went up their body and I stopped at their middle, their torso. And then I thought, I wonder how much you can tell about somebody from their torso. And then I wrote a story about a woman who falls in love with the middle of a man, she works in a button factory in quality control. And she sees the middle of people walking by because there's a big large window, but the top is by as is, has a banner in the bottom is newspaper machines. But she sees this confidence strut, she sees this coffee order, that's the same and she sees the Financial Times opened up every day. And she puts all our hopes and dreams and love into this guy, even though there's somebody boring in the factory that likes her and she's not interested. Anyway, I wrote that story. That was the first kind of original thing I wrote. I sent it to my agent sent it out. And I Susanne Daniels. We know from Cobra Kai early on, is Greg Daniels wife, she picked it up from a stack of scripts. And honestly, I think it's because mine was just short story, it was thinner, it was like going to be much easier than to read a thick script she liked it told Greg to write to read it. And that's how I got that job. But it was there was a little bit of claustrophobic feeling in that button factory and the outside and the window and the imagination making a situation that small, kind of more enjoyable. And I feel like a lot of people in the office did do that. But also, I really learned my lesson to not make fun of making your goals smaller and smaller until you can actually achieve it. And then you don't I mean, I write much more than 10 minutes a day now. But I had to make it doable. So that was a lot of stories mixed.

Zack Arnold

No, no, that was that was fantastic. Number one, I have to read this short story. Because there are so I mean, it's you and I have so many similarities, just the way that we see the world. You know, like so it's just so funny. Like what I was thinking while you were telling that was going into the deepest, darkest depths of my psyche and asking myself, why is it that I struggle with anytime I gain weight, I judge myself, right, because the middle of the torso and I'm thinking to me, it's not about the image, it's not about the six pack is that if I look at the middle of somebody's torso, you can judge how they live their life, based on their habits based on what they eat based on how much they move. You can see most of that in their torso. That's what was going through my mind. So you and I have that whole same ADHD like just going down these routes, right. But what what I was also thinking about is that looking specifically at this idea of somebody in a button factory and having this really unique way of passing the time, it just reminds me of all the crazy shit that Jim was doing to Dwight, for example, where I mean, I would guess that if there was anybody that was as close to what you dealt with, or how you felt about in office, it would have been Jim, because he was the everyman that was like, Oh, I'm just here for a paycheck for a few months. And then it ends up becoming his entire life and his identity multiple times go through that identity crisis. So I can see that short story if I were Greg Daniels and like, you get these characters.

Jen Celotta

Yeah, yeah. I mean, out of boredom comes imagination. I think. I was able to tap into that. Yeah, I was definitely able to tap into that. I mean, another cold open happened because Greg and I were supposed to write a just reminded me by saying Greg like, had to write a script together. And I kind of procrastinated. I didn't know what his style was for writing. And I found that we were both kind of procrastinating I don't know if that's his norm, because I've never written with him before. But all of a sudden, I was complaining about my ear, he had some sort of shoulder thing going on, we looked up WebMD. And he was putting like some oil from the kitchen in my ear to try to cure me. And he we were trying to diagnose his shoulder thing. And we just turned it into a cold open where Michael and Dwight are on WebMD. And Dwight thinks he has a problem with his uterus, pointing to that area of the body. So there's just like, but that's what you do in are also in a writers room. Like even though it's interesting, and it's different. A lot of it is sitting there for 12 hours a day, 10 hours a day, the similar people you know, ordering lunch, it's like there's a little bit there's a routine, that that routine changes show to show, sometimes you're on a show for five years or whatever. But so parts of it change other parts of it when you're sitting and trying to break story are just hard and you try to figure out ways to kind of bring some joy in.

Zack Arnold

I want to talk a little bit more about using the writing process similar to what I just talked about with how I have recently discovered I use writing newsletters, writing blog posts, doing podcast interviews, I've realized that I've just been using it as my own therapy to figure out what the hell is the whole purpose of this world and life all about right? But I know that for you, you have a lot of thoughts about how to use writing in the process to manage anxiety work through issues so much so in fact, that at one point Steve Carell said to you Then when I leave, this is going to be hard for you because you're not going to be able to work out a lot of your problems through my character. Is that true?

Jen Celotta

Yes. 100% Yes. You said this is gonna be difficult because I think I have a feeling you work out a lot of stuff through my character. Yes, yes. So, so this is very interesting, because it definitely works that way. It definitely works that way. But it also Okay, so I, I both things to say, I haven't spent enough time thinking about how my writing helps me and more how I have to do things to help myself so I can write. So like I have many more, I have a lot of thoughts about how I can organize my life and be kind to myself and be patient with myself and meditate and do things that can like, allow me to continue Get out of my own way. But yes, I'm writing very much allows me to exercise that part of my brain that needs a challenge that gets kind of bored. And I need to, I need to be able to, to do that. And like cracking a story is the best feeling in the world. So if it's like I am struggling in anything, you know, personally, or whatever, and I try to attempt to write or try to break a story. And then I get that feeling where it's like, I just worked hard at it. And I did something it's so weird, I feel like doing a dance. Like it's just this quiet thing that happens in a brain. It's not like I've just sewed somebody back up from surgery. And to that, like, it's just like, it's just, I know that I sort of figured it out. So I feel like there's a lot of reward in that. So I'm not sure that this story is going to prove that or me an answer to that question. But I, I found that there was somebody on the office who I'm very close with, I'm not gonna say who it is. But there was somebody who I'm close with and close with a bunch of their writers on the office, but there was somebody where I first the beginning of working together, we kind of like would go a little like that I'm not bad, and all safe and good. But it would just be a little like that. And I would notice that person would kind of like, you know, like almost bark something and I would kind of, you know, bark back and feel like I needed to defend myself or withstand whatever. And then we would entangle in this thing. And I kind of was like kind of like this pattern, I need to figure out how I can change my behavior because I can't change this other person. And I knew didn't take anything personally, I was way past that point in my career definitely could tell you stories from the past, but I wasn't at that place. So I ended up googling. And it kills me to say this now because I love them. But like I ended up googling how to deal with difficult people. And I ended up trying three things over the course of six months. And one was kind of when someone does that, just let it fall, don't be engaged, just let it fall. You know, they're just kind of getting upset about something that they're getting upset about. And you don't owe it to anybody. Everybody else is kind of observing this interaction to you're not stuck in here where you have to kind of they say a UCB, you know, you can just let it go. It's not you don't, we're not weak, you're not less strong, because you but I thought, you know, the girl in the industry, I gotta, so I just let it go. And then so there were a couple of techniques anyway. About it worked. It worked, like these techniques worked. And I was very grateful and felt good. But what ended up happening is a couple years later on the show, I was sent off without a BS story. So I had Phyllis, Google how to deal with difficult people and try all the things that I had tried on this writer in the room. On Phyllis, I mean on Angela, and did the entire story about this person, and they have no idea.

Zack Arnold

To this day.

Jen Celotta

Yes.

Zack Arnold

Oh my God, that's hilarious.

Jen Celotta

I have no clue because I don't want to ever tell them. I Googled how to deal with difficult people. Because they weren't really difficult. But it was I was the way I had to put it in to figure out how do I stop this pattern from happening? And we're very close. But it was like, yeah, yeah, there was a core group of us. And I was just like, this is I need to figure this out. And so yeah, they never realized that that's what I ended up doing. But I feel like so I had a thing I worked through with thing. And then I wrote about the thing that I worked through, and I feel like it helped other people. So like it didn't really, at that point didn't really help me, but so it was a little bit back a little bit backwards. But sometimes I do things therapeutically, because I write about something that I'm working through on my own like, you know, I wrote grief counseling and I, you know, had had some experiences with grief. And I think it did help me that sort of experience. Yeah.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, so it sounds like even though you might be doing it in a more fictitious, more humorous world. It's very similar to my process where as a coach, what I've learned is that whatever advice I'm giving somebody else, the only person that needs to hear it more than the person who I'm giving it to is me. All the time. I'm giving advice. I'm like, I really need to listen to This advice, question, right? Because I'm not doing any of these things either. And I just find that having I've had so many conversations 1000s of conversations, whether it's about work life balance, or better health or fitness or time management, productivity, career paths. And without me having any specific connection between the call at 9am, and the call at 10am, or what people want to talk about a Wednesday or Friday, it all centers around similar themes, and I keep thinking it's a coincidence, then I'm like, Oh, I'm the coincidence. I'm, I'm working through the problem. And I'm seeing those problems, right.

Jen Celotta

Yeah. But I don't know if you've done this, but have you? Have you accumulated the top, you know, 10 things you've learned from all your interviews? I mean, we curious if you like, boil down, like the things that really stick with you, or really changed you or really made you be like, Oh, I have no, I, you know, that really shifted the way I think about things because you're in such a wonderful, I mean, all your listeners as well, and position to sort of hear a myriad of advice, you know, and just kind of pick and choose, you know, these are the things that really resonate.

Zack Arnold

It's funny, because just recently, I forced myself to write that. And it's not basically here are the 10 things that I learned from the podcast. But I wrote this really long newsletter that, again, is just me journaling to the public, I've just finally discovered this. But it was essentially the 20 most important or the 10 most important lessons I've learned from 20 years of working in Hollywood. Oh, wow, just as a shameless plug for anybody that wants to know them. It's one of the first emails I send you when you subscribe to my free newsletter. And it's this giant long list of if I were to boil down all these lessons, whether it's through my own failures, through talking about other people's failures, talking through successes, you follow these 10 things, and you do it consistently, you're going to be successful. Yeah, but it came from having so many conversations, either with my students or just through my own life. But yes, I finally just sat down one day, and I'm like, I need to distill this into something. But again, it was just to work through it in my own brain. Because with ADHD, which I want to get into next, it just never shuts up. Like, would you just go to bed for eight hours at night, but it doesn't do it. And all these ideas were in my brain, I'm like, I need to get it out, I need to externalize it. Let me break down this list. Now I never even think about it anymore. There's always some other chat

Jen Celotta

I have to write it down, I have to write it down, I have to get it out. And then it's out. In fact, I, I found this when I was prepping for this. Things to remember when I'm writing under a deadline, this is my lesson ended up on my wall. And then I got embarrassed because like my housekeeper came because they were pretty dorky. But I was like, I just need to I need to remember those things. But I just actually you'd mentioned failure. And I wanted to say to that back to the passionate thing that I was fortunate enough. And we were saying passion doesn't have to be your career. But passion helps me with my career. And I because if I when I did not get asked back to shows which happened three times out of like 13 shows. I wanted it so badly that it didn't I didn't you know, I didn't even think about doing anything different, you know, I had to get back in. So there was something bullying, about having that underlying feeling of drive and the passion and the excitement for the thing that protected me some of my friends who don't like as much what they're doing, you know, for various reasons, when they hit a problem, sometimes struggle a bit more, because there's not that, oh, there's that lighthouse that they're like, you know, it's just keeping them on course,

Zack Arnold

yeah, the only thing harder than doing a job that you don't want to do is when you have to solve problems and deal with challenges in a job that you don't want to do. Right. And it's the opposite. Because when you actually love what you do, there's nothing you want more than to create new problems to solve, which is why I can't work on boring shows no offense to anybody that works on it or watches it, you couldn't pay me enough to edit NCIS I just couldn't do it. Because it has a formula, you're part of a machine and you get the work done. For some people. It's the perfect career opportunity based on what they need out of their life. If I'm not working on something that's kind of a complete and total shit show. And they're coming to me saying we had all these things we wanted to do, we couldn't do any of them just work with what you have in like a accident, which is one of the reasons I love Cobra Kai, obviously was all the respect in the world, it's a really hard show to get on can because they don't have enough time. They don't have enough money. And what they put what they put on the page. Like if people read some of the stuff that's on the page, they're like, holy shit. This is supposed to be a fight five times bigger than the final version, which by the way was awesome. But you've read the pages and I'm sure you've looked at every script. You're like, what the fuck like how, how are we going to do this in eight days? Like, come on

Jen Celotta

My last episode was 505. And there let's let me if you do the math on this, let's say it was like a 33 page script to too. We shoot for six days now instead of five days, right? So we have six days. Two of my days were a 12 hour fight scene two days and how much time Ah, is that two pages?

Zack Arnold

Maybe right? Insert fight here.

Jen Celotta

Oh, that's four pages out of 32. We got 28 pages to shoot in four days. And this isn't cross coverage like Abbott where he's got three cameras go in at once and go good look to see camera got something cool.

Zack Arnold

So then when you put when you're put into that kind of a position, how do you make your days and problem solve and get the job done?

Jen Celotta

Okay, I think about that a lot. And here are the following things. And I reserve the right to like, we got to know for other more experienced directors to tell me that this sounds crazy, but like every director that cares, like I prep the crap out of it, prep the crap out of it, there were times where we couldn't have time to go into location scout, I would just make it happen. I would grab a couple of people and I'm like, during lunch, can we go to this park? Because we're gonna be shooting in this park. And we don't have time to go look at the park in advance. So I would do that. And then I, I think what's I think what helps me as a director on that show, is that they're very story. They're very interested in the story and the writing. And I feel like at first they were kind of trusting a lot of writer directors and I and so when I know we have the performance or the thing I can get out, you know, I there was one time where I almost gave Ralph one take and it killed me. So we didn't do we didn't do, but I was there on the first tech. So we did one more. But I don't need to if I have the performance, and I have the story and it looks good. I don't have to do some fancy thing. Do you know what I mean? There's no, there's I mean, I like to I like to I like to pick my moments where you do a cool shot or you have a crane every once in a while I remember once we had like, I feel like we had broomsticks taped together. And a camera. I don't know what it was it was not a crane. But we had a camera very high with no crane. So like we'll try. I'll try to do cool interesting things every once in a while. But I feel like I can try to get out. I also feel this is such a weird thing to say about myself. But I think there's other directors that I've seen do this, and I'll talk about that because I kind of feel like I saw Harold Ramis do this, I saw JJ Abrams do this. And I tried to emulate this is how I feel inside is I'm extraordinarily appreciative of the crew and of the editors and of everybody that I work with extraordinary, I know my place in there. And so I find that I try to express that appreciation as much as I can. Because I feel like sometimes when you're just on a schedule where you're like this, this, this, this, it just can't get done. If I hear one department kind of thinking about something, it's not totally my place bid to get involved because I need to do 10 Other things, I still want to represent their point of view with this, I want to connect the dots and connect the people because this if this department is thinking one thing, this department is thinking another thing, it's going to end up slowing things down. But also there's just a communication thing where they're thinking, why don't they understand me? And why don't they understand me? It's just because there's not the time to do this. So I think I spend a lot of time trying to do that, you know, and trying to connect the dots. But that said, I don't I don't know there. There are times where I honestly don't know, I think we had a 16 hour day. And this is probably something I shouldn't say but an ad once said to me, I won't say what season I won't say what it was this is a 16 hour day that Why does it take 12 hours on the prep schedule? They're like, that's all we have. I was like, All right, so when I know that, you know, I just don't linger at all once I have something that you have to be Yeah, scary. It's scary, you know, then the weight is on you. Why didn't you get this? You know, so. But yeah, those are

Zack Arnold

also goes back to that idea of just being so decisive and how you make choices is not just what the choices are about how you make those choices, what the heuristics are, as far as like for you, it's important to bring everybody's voice together. And your level of appreciation for the people that are working on the show did not go unnoticed. Even though I've never been on set to this day just working with you. That was very clear. And one of the things that I've been trying to figure out for years are who are the people that I really gravitate towards that I either want to work with or that I want to talk to her that in general, I just want to be part of my life. And I found a really interesting theme and I had really honed in on it completely until I kept asking why am I so driven to get you on the show specifically and I'll tell you what it is. What I figured out is that I'm fascinated by people that have absolutely no business continuing to be nice to others when they don't have to be because if you look at you on paper and what you've accomplished, you have every right to be a diva and be an asshole and treat people like shit and be successful. Right and I've met other people where it's the same where it's like you have no business being this nice you don't have to be what you choose to be which again goes to how you do anything is how you do everything that fascinates me.

Jen Celotta

Thank you so much. I don't see another way I it's so nice. You say that I just don't see another way I feel like The I didn't realize why I was writing for the longest time, I never really asked myself, I just knew I loved it. And then I realized it all clicked in. And I like connecting people, I like putting a story on TV or on a movie that people who maybe are alone in thinking that they have this fear, they have this anxiety, they have this neurosis, whatever it is that they see themselves represented on screen and that they feel like, oh, they do that to somebody else does that too. So I very much a i Very care I very much care about people, I and it takes everybody to build anything good. It takes everybody you need everybody and not just from if everybody works, then I look better. I just think we all get better. We're all creating thing. And if we're not doing what are we here for? If we're not for that, right? Like I'd be in a cave by myself somewhere, you know? So, yeah. And also I feel extraordinarily blessed, and also very much want to help people come after me. There's nothing better. There's nothing better than trying to help other voices get in there, you know,

Zack Arnold

which to me goes back to this constant ongoing exploration I have of how does the show like Cobra Kai, have any business being this good? Working with the three show runners, if I were to distill it down to one thing, and there are a ton of different reasons this show is so good. But I'm interested to see if you agree with this perspective, is because with those three, it doesn't matter who you are, the best idea wins.

Jen Celotta

Ah, yes. And I Yes, yes, yes. And I have to tell you something, I made that discovery at one point a little while ago, oh, my gosh, I don't want this, okay, I'm not going to I'm not tell the audience, you're not going to tell them something. But I have worked with show runners, I divided them into categories, people who are super passionate and when I'm going to say control freaks, but I don't mean control freaks in unnecessarily bad way, I just mean that they have a very specific point of view of what they want. I'm going to say control. But it's I don't mean it in the negative way. But their show runners who are very passionate in a very good sense of what they want and very specific sense of what they want. And I divided them all into two camps. And I've worked with to show one that wasn't it wasn't as a show writer at the time and one show runner who were that and had egos. The idea needed to come from them, it needed to be filtered to them, and they needed to have their stamp on it. And then I hadn't it is absolutely John, Josh and Hayden. And that's why I love, love, love working with them. But when I identified it as Greg Daniels, same thing, he does not care if you just if you're a Beatty writer who started a week ago, or if you were somebody who's been there for eight years, the best idea wins. And that's the guys. And that's Greg. And so I kind of like looked at every showrunner I'd ever worked with and was able to kind of divide them into these two camps of like people who have a very, because I think you have to have a good strong point of view in order to get anything good done. And they're passionate about what it is that they do. But some have egos and some don't. And I exclusively try to work with the ones who don't have the and not because I need my idea to win. But it's just like, you know, what am I doing trying to help somebody else, you know, who wants the match? It's not as it's not as interesting. It's not as enjoyable. Yeah.

Zack Arnold

And I think you identified another key component to this creative process. The best idea wins. But if their vision sucks, or they have no vision, it doesn't matter, because it's a collection of random good ideas. And I've also never worked for show runners that are more specific about what they want, and they will incessantly push you note after note after note after note, they're like, yep, that's what it is not because that was my idea. And I want my vision, you can go in a totally different direction where they say, this thing needs to be blue, I envision a blue, then you make the red version. And they're like, Okay, red is better. But here's my version of the red scene, right? And I want to go into it. And you tell me your ideas to now get it here. But it's not about well, you can take their vision, you can totally change it and take them down a new path, but they still have an idea of this is the level that we need to get it to before we can walk away and say yep, that's done. Now. Let's go ahead and lock it. forwards.

Jen Celotta

Yes. And I and this may be the ADHD in me, but I just thought of one other thing that reminds me of from that other thing of like, what, what saves me time, and this is gonna sound counterintuitive, but what saves me time is that I'm not afraid of not knowing what the hell I'm talking about. Like I'm not afraid of not Not, not not I'm not afraid of not having the answer. And I think there's there when I first started directing, I remember at home because I was nervous and he was just trying to be nice. And he gave me advice that everybody gives me which is fake it till you make it. Like I can't base basically. But the what what, what's the good that comes out of it besides when I look like a fool and I'm embarrassed, you know, I'm moderately embarrassed is that by saying it out loud? You then hear that three other people don't get it and two other people had a different idea of what it is. So if something is that a big discussion of this and this and this and I'm like can you just explain that again, because I don't see how we can get from here to here. I feel like sometimes I'm in a situation where different people have different thoughts. And nobody really understands what it is. So a lot more time is wasted trying to get the thing done. So I'm sort of the first to say, I think, no, that's not probably true in every situation that you should do that. But I'm like, timeout, I need to under I, in order to direct this, I need to understand the intention here. If I don't understand the intention here, and I don't understand how we're going to make this happen. You know, I can't just accept, you know, when you're saying that this can happen when two, three other people have different ideas, we need to talk about this. And so I'm okay saying like, let's all talk that's I'll say exactly what we're thinking about what the solution is. And then sometimes people will be like, actually don't know. Like, I'm glad I brought it up.

Zack Arnold

Here's another one of those weird, crazy things I talked about earlier, where we can use our creative process to identify these patterns. I had a conversation for an hour today earlier with somebody you've never met in a totally different fields completely talking about the concept of faking it until you make it. No, I swear to God, I could, I could send you the recording just to prove that I won't, for privacy reasons, but had this entire conversation in depth. And I want to throw this idea out to you to see if you would find this useful. And if you would, perhaps other people that are listening would find it useful as well. And I didn't necessarily come up with this concept, but I built upon it. I don't believe you should fake it until you make it because I feel that feels inauthentic that feels like you're trying to put on a facade and lie. But how about if you had to face it until you make it on? What if you have to face the fact you don't know the answer? And you just need to power through the discomfort and accept failure? And just face it until you do know the answer.

Jen Celotta

100% I think that's brilliant. And it's like face it and and and and part of that is go with what you think the best answer is with what you know, right? You can't just sit there and sometimes and just think about it. You're in charge at this moment. Or it's your it's on you. So you have to make the decision with what you know, you can spend a second saying I don't understand, can you do this? Can you do this? And then you just gotta go. I mean, the directing, as opposed to writing either to different parts of my brain somehow. But with directing, it's making a million decisions, and at least 20% of them. I don't know if that's the correct decision, but you need to make a decision. There's departments counting, if I don't make a decision about this, this probably won't be ready in time. Right? So yes, I totally agree you have to face you have to be brave enough to go forward. Even if you don't completely know it, try to get the answers try to be collaborative and figure out who can help you. If you don't know it, and then yeah, be okay. failing. And and it's there was a script supervisor from Avid Elementary, he was wonderful. He was telling me something like if you do this, then whatever. And, and he was correct, but I was like I, you know, I at that point, he saves me a bunch. But I was like, I that's I don't need to do that. But I said, let them know if anybody questions you that you told me? And I said, No, you know what I mean? Because it's like, it's on me. So you have to, especially in any kind of a leadership position be okay, making a decision, because you can't sit and talk about it with 10 people all the time. And then risk oops, I made the wrong decision.

Zack Arnold

But again, going back to the same theme, how you do anything is how you do everything, you're taking responsibility if it goes wrong, which is yet another conversation I had with somebody about this idea that whatever, like if you're debating, I want to do this thing, or I want to do that thing, or I don't really want to share it with him, or I don't know how to connect with him and whatever it might be, as long as you're willing to take responsibility for it as opposed to, well, if this goes wrong, I'm going to pin it on the assistant or I'm going to pin it on this person. It just goes back to like you're at a point in your career, where you can say, oh, yeah, that's the script supervisors fault. They're not going to question you, right? And then this script supervisor is going to eat a little bit of shit. I told Jen, that thing she didn't listen, now she threw me under the bus. Yeah, you're in a place in your career where you can easily get away with that, but you choose not to, which kind of goes to this larger hypothesis that I'm trying to prove to the industry is that we make a better work and we are going to be more successful if we do it being nice people and treating others with respect, but for some reason, there's this belief in this industry, the only way I get to the top is climbing over others. And I'm trying to prove that not only is that wrong, but it's not the path that's going to make you more successful

Jen Celotta

100% And I have to tell you, I have never I have had worked on I've been so blessed to work on so many good sets. I have never been on a set as kind as respectful as well organized as Abbott Elementary. Quinta Brunson is a genius. And she is so beyond kind. She's very respectful. And people kept asking me like, What was it like to work with her? Like, you know, how, what was it? And my thing was, I I'm learning every day, I'm learning about shots. I'm learning about lenses. I'm learning about things. I felt like I became a better person being around her, because she and there's a little bit of a cliche about this right now is that women sometimes apologize too much. And I do sometimes in my words, and sometimes in my behavior, and I don't, I will always I'm strong and I'll do what I want to do. And you know, sometimes I'll feel badly about something later, but I'll do it. But I'll say sorry, you don't have those words first date, or I'll just kind of, I don't know, I'll defer something. Again, when it's big decisions, I'll go forward. She doesn't do that. She doesn't do that. She does not like say, Oh, I'm sorry. Or oh, that she and I felt like she, every decision that the people there are extraordinarily kind, everybody and I have not experienced this, their hours are short. I mean, they they, they get in, they work very hard. They get out and I know they have three cameras going at all times. But you know, we were wrapping it three o'clock. Somedays you know, it,

Zack Arnold

I'm just going to assume you mean am because it couldn't even be possible to wrap it

Jen Celotta

No. it's PM, it's PM, when the crew was going to go on strike the producer, you know, basically said you guys are family and we understand, you know, just just a talking to them like human beings. There's a it, it is so beautiful. One of the actresses at the end of the show this past that I directed, came out and said, You know, I didn't know what she was doing. Because everybody started coming in the hallway. And she's like, I just want you to know that while we were here, putting this show together this week, there was a birth, there was a death, and not not on the show. But, and I, I just want you to know that you guys are all extremely important. What you do here is important, you are all so valued. And you were all so important. And you know, it was just, there's that vibe going on. It's just infused in the show. So I am so happy. I'm so grateful to be a part of it. And I'm so grateful to the people that are coming up, there's a bunch of baby writers are seeing that it can be done this way. These writers are not working late. They have wonderful storytelling, they're doing great job, but they just yeah,

Zack Arnold

I'm hoping that with the witness the change of the guard, so to speak of these younger generations coming up with this idea of you just have to pay your dues with the 80 hour weeks. And you know, just it doesn't matter how you treat people, you just got to climb to the top, I really hope that we just eliminate those beliefs, and they become all but extinct. But it just it takes one person at a time when director at a time when showrunner at a time to show that it's acceptable. I agree. You know, I love talking to people that can both be incredibly successful at the top of their game. But they've done it bringing other people with them, rather than putting them down to get where they are, which again, the whole reason I wanted to have you on the show. I have one of the topics that I just continually try to get in and I can never find kind of the right segue to it. But you continue to allude to it. And I want to dig into it a little bit deeper. You may not have even noticed. But you've said multiple times. Maybe it's because of the ADHD. That's been a pre qualifier for a lot of your conversations. I want to talk about this a little bit because this is a big part of my journey. It's a huge topic of conversation I've talked about since literally, interview number one and episode number one eight years ago, was the fact that I was diagnosed with adult onset add, and it was just like my entire world was shaken. And I'm curious, what is your origin story? As far as better understanding how your brain works? Is it just a matter of a lot of people say Oh, I'm so add, or have you? And my guess is you really dug into it to better understand and and identify how your brain works. So what's your origin story when it comes to your neurodiversity?

Jen Celotta

My origin story is that when I was young, I ended up sort of testing into sort of, you know, when you were really little and kind of you take these tests, and I go into sort of more of these advanced classes, but I was unbelievably disorganized. I mean, unbelievably. And just like, you know, I came home without a two two ones from a dance class with one shoe wants, like, where's the shoe, but I didn't know where the shoe was. I once didn't have a jacket. And I actually thought I said another girl was cold. But I had no idea what other girl it was, you know what I mean? Like, though, so part of it was just I wanted to help but but I ripped a page out of the encyclopedia when it's like back when encyclopedias were expensive to like, tape it on my paper. So and and in fifth or sixth grade, they gave out awards to the entire grade. And for some reason, they gave real awards, like MVP, and best listener and best, they gave me most organized as a joke.

Zack Arnold

There's a memory you're never gonna forget for memory.

Jen Celotta

So it was so then I also had procrastination. I had a lot of things where I had to bump up the intensity, the adrenaline, the excitement. I had one teacher meant that was quickly. But I had this one professor in college, he basically said 80% of your grade is going to be a paper and I'm not going to accept it late and I'm not going to accept it late every week. He said this 20% Is your attendance. 80% is this paper I'm not going to accept it late. I always would have my paper printing out back when we would print out papers, printing out and running the class right? I mean, we'll do it the night before it stay up all night. My grades were better when I did that than when I did things in advance. I just couldn't get the adrenaline up and the challenge in the interest enough to focus so my focus was scattered. So that he scared me so much. And I was in college of communications now. So I just wanted to do well, that I, for the first time ever did a paper in advance ever. And because of that, it wasn't printing out of my printer. I go to class, I don't have my paper. I had done it three days before, I didn't have it. Because I was so nervous that I wasn't going to remember to do it that I did it in advance, but because it wasn't printing out to the printer, I didn't have it. So I go up to him after class. And I said, you know, I'm every beat, I'm just hearing, there's a line of kids. And they're like, I don't have it. He's like, sorry, done failed, I don't have it failed at and I I said, Listen, the only reason I don't have the paper is because it is the very first time I've ever done something in advance, it meant so much to me that this is the only time I've ever not procrastinated. And it is for that reason that I don't have my paper. And he's like, okay, you can go get it, I am going to mark you down either grade or half a grade, I don't remember. But like he didn't, he just was like, That's too crazy to not be, you know, that has to be true. So I ran and I got it. But I knew I had struggled with it. And then I went to therapy kind of more for like OCD and some other things, knowing that pretty much knowing it from my mom, who's a psychologist and worked with kids with ADHD and also worked with kids. But I wanted to find every other reason that a kid could have this issue as opposed to that, like she doesn't like to die like she's not a kid not passing out the Ritalin or trying to like diagnose everybody. So I kind of knew from her, I took a screener test. And it's, you know, it said, if you have 14 out of 20, or add and I had 19 out of 20 and 1920s, like five out of five. So then I got tested for it. And they said I did and it all just all of a sudden, everything just made sense. Like everything. The fact that I love challenges, the fact that I procrastinate, the fact that, oh, this is so embarrassing, but I'll share it. So every once in a while, I'll just forget to put deodorant on. But more often than I should like maybe eight times in my life, I would put deodorant under one arm. And between that arm and this arm, I get distracted. So I would go to work. And I remember it happened at least twice on the office. And I smelled under one of my arms, but not under the other. And I would like try to figure out who to sit with. smelled really, really was friends with someone, I might face them towards the so anyway, so I ended up having to do a lot of things for my brain to sort of, and a lot of it was acceptance. And my mom would say with her clients and with other people she would say like creative brains and people who have empathy and sensitivity and are perceptive, and all the qualities that make you a great creative person. And oftentimes just a person empathy, the ability to understand another situation or write about them, that their brains are kind of like this. They've got the good stuff. And they've got this other stuff because it often comes with anxiety and depression and attention issues. And there's so common in the creative brain. And she would say you can't throw away the good stuff and keep them you can't throw away the bad stuff and keep the good stuff. So it's a matter of how do you find the tools to help with the bad stuff. But to honor the fact that you know, the flip side of that crap, is I get to have a cool brain that can come up with inventive things. So I think honestly, just almost accepting it and realizing the flip side was good was a lot of it. And then many other things. I wrote a movie, I quit the office, which was my best job ever to write a movie about the life of a man, it's one moment from every year of his life starts before he's born. And it's like a flipbook scenes are like 15 seconds to two minutes. And I listened to thunderstorms maybe 3000 times while I wrote that movie, because it kept me engaged enough. And I would take a hairband and kind of do this so that all I just would do move this to have this and I could focus. So I know that was way longer.

Zack Arnold

No, that was absolutely fascinating. And the the problem that you've now created, is we're gonna have to figure out where we can find more hours in the day because I'm just going to need you have you be one of my ADHD coaches and psychologists, because boy, do you understand the way that this works. This is something that I've been talking about four years in this podcast and the coaching programs, something that I've dealt with for most of my adult life. But like you said, the first thing when it comes to understanding this is accepting that it is what it is like it's not like you can't be fixed. And the reason you can't be fixed is because you're not broken. Yes. Oh, so you just you need to understand what are the good parts and what are the bad parts and have the tools to manage both? Because I still to this day, like literally to today not like to this day in general to today. I will do something and I will say out loud. God, I hate my brain. No, I don't hate my brain. I'm very thankful for it. But when things like this happen, it drives me crazy. But I accept that it is what it is and I find the tools overcome it but I still fall into that trap of just getting so frustrated with certain things. that I struggle with it most quote unquote normal people would be like, you just put the deodorant under the other arm. You know, it's not hard, right? You're like, what you don't get it. I had the best idea of the week between the left arm and the right arm, and I'm not gonna forget it. I gotta get it on the paper, right? I know exactly when you were telling that story is like, oh my god, I understand this so much more than you can even possibly imagine.

Jen Celotta

That's amazing. And I'm for me, it wasn't I hate my brain. For me. It was I'm lazy and stupid. That was my thing over and over and over. Now I don't do it as much. But like, that's my default, because I would do it on a math test. I would, you know, forget didn't have a good memory have to relearn the logic of the puzzle, do the puzzle, but be a careless error at the end. And I would get it wrong. And I I understood all of it about that. But I didn't care about that I cared about I got it wrong. It's math. I got it wrong. I'm, you know, too lazy to learn to do it carefully. I'm too stupid to have gotten right. Yeah, that was the mantra in my head. And at some points it maybe drugs maybe helped drive me? Maybe, you know, because I wanted to prove something. But more often, I had to kind of realize that no, no. This is something you're telling yourself? It is not?

Zack Arnold

Yeah, it's a story that we tell ourselves, right? Going back to this idea of being storytellers. We tell the story that Oh, I am broken, or I hate my brain, or I'm so stupid, or I'm so lazy, or whatever it might be. But I feel like the first step is I just accepted this is the hand that I was dealt. And now I have a choice going back to this idea of making choices, right? Either I can choose to consider it a disability and consider it my kryptonite, or I can develop the tools to turn it into a superpower. It doesn't mean that the disability or the kryptonite isn't there. Like on a daily basis, there are day to day things about how I manage my life where my wife is just like, I mean, come on, like, what? Right, but we need that to have all the best parts. So I'm curious if we could distill it down of all the things they used to manage whatever it might be, if there's one tool that you use to allow the way your brain works to be your superpower, and not your kryptonite, what do you think it is?

Jen Celotta

I think, I think it might be acceptance, because I think that when I accept it, they're gonna write about my experience. And when I can write about my experience, people can relate to it, and people can relate to it. And I feel like I'm bringing people together. Do you know what I mean? I feel like the superpower literally might be the thing itself. You know, I had an idea that I couldn't quite crack, but I'll just tell you what it was an animated movie where a kid gets a adolescent boy gets bit by, you know, radioactive Ladybug, or I don't know, some radioactive insect and gets anxiety. And then learns how to, you know, deal with the bad and the good, like, learns that he's like, wants to climb walls, he wants to be Spider Man, he wants to be everything else. But then he basically is anxiety he learns to kind of focus the oh, I'm over hyper focusing on what could go wrong. So now I have solutions for 15 different problems. So now I'm prepared. Do you know like, I'm not sleeping as much but I'm using that time to and but also he finds ways to corral it and you know, not have it. Get the best of him. So he like learns to use his superpower, which is anxiety. So it's like, I'm always playing around with the idea that something that's bad. That's, you know, people think of that is there's a flip side, but yeah.

Zack Arnold

So awareness, definitely, I think is a very, very important tool. I think awareness is a tough one to actually put on a calendar or to do list right here. Like, I'm gonna make a little checkbox, be aware of your neuro diversity today at 2pm.

Jen Celotta

I think it's, I think, I don't know if I could narrow it down. But I think it's that I find, find the thing that you're for me, find the thing that you're passionate about, because it's going to make you you know, really hyper focus on it, and you're gonna really enjoy it. Make small goals, make small goals don't be Oh, don't set ridiculous goals, set goals that you can achieve. I worked with a show runner who wasn't coming in, he was wonderful, but he wasn't coming in and approving outlines, I made a sticker chart for him. And if he got 30 stickers, because he read outlines, then he would get this prize that I knew he loved. So like even when you when you're super successful, you know, like you like getting rewards. And so you have to have wins. And so for a brain that is not typical, having setting it up setting you up to succeed, finding the tools, and one of them is creating small goals that I marked and embracing that, you know, no, I need to do this. And and yeah,

Zack Arnold

so now I have the very distinct and unique opportunity of giving you a note because you've given me many many, many notes before. I'm gonna throw one note at you and I want to see what you think. Yeah, everything you said I agree with except for one. Yeah, there's one thing that you said that I think it'd be very dangerous for people which is don't set big ridiculous goals set small goal. And my feeling is, at least from what I've learned, is that you start with setting the ridiculous goal, but then you break it down into a series of much, much smaller ones in pieces, but I mean, that's what I because that's what I assumed it was I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page

Jen Celotta

100% mean that I just am not eloquent. But ya know, I, when when I was going to write my short story, I was going to write a short story or and then I was going to use it as a sample. I was going to submit it to the New Yorker. My goals were big by I had to break down the process of it into winnable, chunks.

Zack Arnold

Good. So I wanted to clarify, because I assumed we were on the same page. Yeah, we were but anybody listening that wouldn't assume that they're like, oh, okay, so I need to stop shooting for the stars and set very real

Jen Celotta

No, no, no, only shoot for the stars. Always. That's all I do. That's all I do. I wrote this movie that I wrote, had, I only thought about story and character. And in 90 speaking roles, my my producer ran it through the Final Draft Check. And she said, not this many people spoken Ben Hur. And I said, Well, I love Ben Hur, I just wish more people spoken. Read for the stars go put it as high as you can. But break those down into six winnable successful chunks, you don't lose the motivation. And you can keep going. So now, everything

Zack Arnold

we taught, we totally agree. So I rescind my note efficient. But if I were to wake up and say my goal for the week is I'm going to lose half a pound. That's not going to get me out of bed and I could give two shits. But if my goal is I want to crush the course on American Ninja Warrior. And the next step is I've got to lose half a pound. Well, then I'm going to break it down into what do I do every hour of every day to be able to hit that one little tiny goal, right. But it has to be attached to something that has a lot more meaning and purpose. And like you said, it lights you up

Jen Celotta

that lights you up and I Yes. And I'm glad you gave me that. No, because actually when I say it, I say it like I said it. And it is not understandable. Because I don't talk about the larger goals. I talk about breaking things into chunks. So it I assume, yeah, I assume things that yeah, everyone's inside my brain. That's clearly not the case,

Zack Arnold

which is another one of those crazy things about ADHD is you speak and you're like, don't you understand all the ideas that are coming out of my head? And people are like, No, I'm sorry, why now, which again, I found is one of the things I've learned to develop as a skill as a podcaster. Because I have to take very complex ideas, and on the fly in the middle of a live conversation, distill it down to the essence of those ideas. And as I'm sure you've learned, one of the other things that has to do with ADHD is you talk really fast, because you have so many ideas that are bottlenecking it your mouth, and you just want to flesh it all out. Yes. Right. So I've had to learn how do I speak more slowly and more succinctly, my ability to do that with all the ideas in my head comes from putting myself in front of the microphone. So again, it's just this idea of what processes can you put into your day that allow you to work through these challenges is your own form of therapy, or literally just going to therapy, which again, to me is one of those top tools to manage and develop that awareness that we talked about, as you have to work through it

Jen Celotta

100% Yeah, you're so good at distilling ideas, and quickly,

Zack Arnold

because I forced myself to do it all the time. Because it's something that used to be very much my kryptonite. I would just talk and talk in circles and have all these ideas and way too fast. And like we have no idea what you just said. I identified that was my kryptonite. How do I turn it into my superpower? Oh, that's what it takes time. And I broke it down into very small doable goals. And it was not well, I don't have a podcast. So now I want to become Tim Ferriss, and I want to get a million downloads a day. What if I just have one episode? Alright, well, what does it take to do one episode? Well, you have to learn how to do this and install your microphone and that like break it down into a series of checklists. Right. Okay, great. Now let's do it a second time. And now here I am doing it roughly 300th time, but it's all part of that process and identifying what are those areas that I struggle with? And how do I get better at them? Which I think just is one of the reasons that you and I just kind of we had this, this connection that I felt almost immediately when we were working together?

Jen Celotta

100% Our brains are very similar. That's very cool,

Zack Arnold

very similar. Is there anything before we wrap up? Because given that I talked about time management and we are now officially a minute over my OCD is like oh my god, I can't believe I'm one minute late talking to Jen. And I'm sure you're just completely and totally offended by it. Is there any question that I have not asked or anything we've talked about, it's important to share before we wrap up?

Jen Celotta

I would say this isn't I honest, isn't a very big point. So but I would say that I take in my career from the beginning, I took calculated risks. And I would as soon as I made any money, I would save it, I would really save it and that has afforded me the ability to do the things that light me up. So I can be picky now. And I can you know when I'm basically can pick like, Oh, this guy's a jerk. I don't want to work with him and this person is wonderful. I want to wait till an opportunity there or I really just love I will do things to pay the bills to then to be able to afford to do the things that I love. I absolutely do that. And I would say count taking calculated risks not getting stuck. If you're not growing and moving. And you there's no point they're not going to promote from within and you feel that you've lost Learn as much as you can replace, take the risk and leave. And if you've saved enough money to give you a little bit of a cushion so you can afford those risks. I feel like it ends up working out in the end.

Zack Arnold

Oh my god, thank you easily be another two part interview for three entire hours. I mean, I'm building an entire section of this program helping people manage their finances, so they can say no to the wrong opportunity.

Jen Celotta

My agents want to kill me and again

Zack Arnold

My agency they've just stopped reaching out because I just continually say no over and over and over. But I'm sure that you've had similar conversations, but people will ask me like, that's so great in today's day and age with all the calendars and the way that the shows line up and you don't work 10 months a year on a show anymore. You've been able to stick with Cobra Kai since season two, I'm like, that's not an accident. That's because I say no to everything else, because they want to be available that cost a lot of money to be able to say no, and be able to consistently stay on a show that's only 567 months a year at best, especially with the gap with the pandemic. It didn't just come together. It wasn't lucky or that was available. There's so many choices I had to make so that I could work on the entire show back to back to back to back to back. Otherwise, I never would have been available, which is why very rarely, when you look at the roster of shows nowadays, either the editors, the writers, the directors, you don't see those people that are just going from season to season. Oh, yeah, almost like every season is season one. I didn't just so frustrating.

Jen Celotta

I do the same exact thing you do. I find people that I love and projects that I love their challenges, and I stick with them. That's it, you know, and then I'll wait them out and

Zack Arnold

do that if you suck at managing your money though,

Jen Celotta

Right. Yes, exactly.

Zack Arnold

So again, I think that there are at least 10 Different rabbit holes that we could open up for 10 Different additional parts of this, but I do want to be very, very conscious of your time. And thank you for your time. But if anybody is listening today, that's either inspired by you inspired by your work with the easiest way to learn more about you get a hold of you connect with you.

Jen Celotta

I think Instagram probably I'm just kind of newish to that Instagram and Facebook. I'm on so yeah, JCelotta, J C E L O T T A on Instagram, I started thinking about putting together a website, and I just didn't, I didn't focus on it enough. So maybe at some point, but right now that's probably it. And Harley Copen Is my agent at CAA. If you know, any sort of

Zack Arnold

I will definitely make sure that the links to your Facebook and Instagram page are in the show notes for this episode, because something tells me if the right person reaches out with the right amount of value, you probably want to help them succeed. And I surround myself with people that have that same philosophy. And so on that note, Jen Oh, my God, was this a pleasure? I can't believe again, talk about ADHD and time blindness. I feel like we started four minutes ago. We started 90 minutes ago was beyond me. It makes absolutely no sense because I feel like I just said hello to you. And I don't know how it's 90 minutes later. But this has been an absolute pleasure. can't thank you enough for your time and your expertise and being here to inspire my audience today. So thank you.

Jen Celotta

Thank you so much. What a pleasure. What a treat.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai