Ep198: Terrified to Make a Big Change In Your Life? Start By “Showing Up Small” | with Eddy Roche

Zack Arnold

My guest today is Eddy Roche, who's a serial entrepreneur and fitness instructor who's on a mission to make the world a fitter, a healthier and a happier place. He has created not just one but two highly successful businesses, one being the largest outdoor fitness community in Los Angeles, and the other being the largest organic whole food delivery service in Los Angeles. But a quick plot twist. Despite his outward confidence, Eddy almost didn't pursue either of these opportunities because he was overwhelmed by both judgment from his peers and also a debilitating case of imposter syndrome. And yes, even the people with 8 packs have imposter syndrome. As Eddy previously felt and as many of us currently feel, it can be downright terrifying when making a major change in your life, because we can be seen by our peers as a beginner. But as Eddy will discuss today, no matter how big we want to succeed, we all have to start small, which also means that we have to be willing to be perceived as small at least as we start. Whether you're looking to make a major lifestyle change by getting in shape, for example, or you want to start a business, or maybe you are currently pursuing a more authentic and fulfilling career path. No matter the direction you're headed, Eddy will inspire you to take the most important step in your journey, which is just getting started. I have no doubt that Eddy's immense amount of positivity or as he calls it, irrational optimism will motivate you to take the first small steps towards something much bigger in your life. By letting go of your fear and embracing your beginner's mind. There is an entirely new world waiting for you, where you can move beyond worrying about how others judge you. And you can experience the true and absolute unadulterated joy of living more authentically. Alright, without further ado, here is my conversation with Eddy Roche. To access the show notes for this episode with all of the bonus links and resources discussed today, as well as to subscribe, leave a review and more, simply visit optimizeyourself.me/episode198. I am here today with Eddy Roche, who is an entrepreneur on a mission. And his mission is to make the world a fitter, healthier and happier place he has created two businesses, one being the largest outdoor fitness community in Los Angeles and the other being the largest organic, whole food delivery service in Los Angeles. And according to my Podcast Producer, Debby, who is also a student of yours, you apparently have the most positive energy ever seen in any human being ever. And if it could be bottled, you would be a billionaire. And you suck down caffeine, like it's water. So on that note, Eddy Roche, welcome to the show.

Eddy Roche

Thank you Zack. Yeah, and that's a very kind of Debby to speak so highly of me. Yeah, I should definitely watch my caffeine intense. That's the one thing I'll definitely say I gotta work on that. But yeah,

Zack Arnold

We were talking about right before the call started. And Debby was like, Well, you know, how much have you have you had you like, Oh, I really toned it down. So I was reading like only three cups. Like, if I had three cups, they'd literally be doing this podcast upside down from the ceiling.

Eddy Roche

That's it. I know, it's certainly nothing to be proud of. I actually even had a recent health scare just 18 months ago, I was diagnosed with pericarditis as a combination of having, which is strangely common amongst young male athletes. But thankfully, that was just a short episode that I got over it pretty quickly. But yeah, I have actually been monitoring my caffeine intake. I used to drink like, upwards of 1012, sometimes even more coffees per day, which is kind of ridiculous and absurd. But I've really dialed that back on it, you know, three or four at most these days. But yeah, there's nothing to be proud of. When we started that, that's,

Zack Arnold

that's just preamble This is the preamble for we're going to start you're going to love where we're going to start. And you're going to find this ironic given that one of your questions beforehand, which I very much respected was you said, Is this a family show? Because you want to make sure that it's respectable and in general, yes, I want to make sure it's a family show. But here's where I want to start is with a quote that you shared in the very introductory episode of your own podcast, we are all fucking die. That's where I want to start is your philosophy about how to get the most out of life? And I think this is a really key part of it. Why would you share that in your introductory episode of a podcast?

Eddy Roche

Yeah, that's interesting. I was that was a fun little project that I just threw together. I was really inspired one morning obviously to have a few shots of espresso or something and I decided to publish a podcast and I can't exactly remember my mentality going into it but that certainly is something I remind myself of very often you know, we are all going to die. We're all just a bunch of you know, evolved chimps on the spinning rock. No one knows why we're here halfway through it and no one knows what the point is. And so you might as well you know, grab life by the horns live life to its fullest squeeze every ounce of, of fun of love of song and dance as you can out of, you know, this 100 year life that we get if we're lucky. And yeah, I think I just live life to the fullest. You know, go big or go home just like get out there and Give everything your best shot and, you know, be do it do as much good in as many places as you can and help as many people as you can. Yeah, I don't know, that's just been a mantra that it's, it's been instilled in based somewhere along the way. And I live by that so

Zack Arnold

Well, I love it. And the couple of directions that I want to go today, for anybody that's listening, there's kind of two divergent conversations that may kind of meet in the middle. The first one is really helping to understand or helping other people understand that are not really into fitness that don't enjoy fitness, but desperately needed as part of their lives, especially if they are sedentary, their well being is not great how to approach fitness from a different perspective, other than this is the most miserable thing on the planet. And it's unnecessary evil. And then the other direction is coming more from the side of you being an entrepreneur, and your own journey of finding yourself and discovering yourself and balancing health with business and everything else. So we're going to kind of take these two Divergent Paths. But there's the name of this initial podcast episode really inspired me, because the name was start now. And I think no matter if you're looking at fitness and health and pursuing a new career or building your own business, talk to me more about this idea of why starting now is so important to you.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, um, well, I think we all procrastinate. Certainly no matter what it is, we really want to like, there's this voice inside our heads that is telling us what we care about what we love, what we're focused on, we're constantly having this dialogue in our heads, we all know what we are focused on inside our heads. But like how many of us actually listen to that voice and go after the life we really want? How many of us actually start doing the thing that we know, we need to start doing right, whether it's eating better, you know, waking up earlier, you know, working on that project, you know, striking up a dialogue with that person who we're always thinking about, for one reason or another. And there's no time like right now. Right? So it's kind of cliche, but yeah, I think we're all we're all procrastinate. A lot of people tend to procrastinate, you know, in all areas of our lives. And I think just like anything you can practice, you know, it's just like a muscle that you train, you know, you can grow out of that procrastination habit, right, you can grow out of that habit of just doing what's easiest, right or delaying that thing that you know, is best for you, even though it's gonna be uncomfortable for a second, you can build that mental muscle of just hey, whatever it is, I want to do I do it now. So for me, you know, at various times in my life, that's been okay. Now I really want to, you know, do this sport instead of that sport that I used to do, or hey, I really want to, you know, jump to fit into this new entrepreneurial pursuits are, hey, I really want to, you know, get fit and commit to this diet. I just workout program. And yeah, there's no time like the present.

Zack Arnold

Yeah. So what's one of the things that really helped me realize that the two of us has such similar philosophies, and I can see why we, the universe naturally gravitated the two or the three of us together, if I include Debby, as a member of my team, it's one of the core fundamental ideas that I teach my students all the time, which, of course, is not my idea, but I take it from other people's ideas is that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, that's when you should have planted it. But guess what, you can't plan it. 20 years ago, you can't even planted yesterday, you can still plant it today. Right? And so many people get stuck in this mindset of oh, well, I should have started getting fit five years ago, but I lost my window. Alright, does your heart to be can you still breathe in and out oxygen? Great, then it's a good time to get fit. That's my fear.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, 100%. And I'll be also honest, like I used to struggle with the the procrastination, you know, thing as well, I used to even as an elite athlete, you know, I was one of the one of the sort of highest performing athletes of the sport I was doing at the time, I would have this tendency to over plan. And I would sit down and I would write out these beautiful training programs for the next six weeks. And now I'll have you know, everything was perfectly measured, I was right out how much I'm going to eat my master knew my macronutrient intake for every day. And when I was going to rest and when I was going to, you know, do a big, you know, this kind of workout or that kind of workout. And at the end of the day, like, I actually would have been a better athlete, if I look back at my younger self, if I would have just been one of these guys who just thought stop thinking and just, you know, just get out there and do the thing. I think I lost so much. I missed out on really capitalizing on my potential because I wasn't I tended to over plan things and overthink things, you know, where sometimes just getting in and doing it and just figuring out as you go, I love this quote, and I'm sure you're a Tim Ferriss fan, you know, I read all about you Zack, you know, you do things just in time, not just in case. It's like this really cool, kind of, you know, fun little phrase that I remember because, you know, we tend to do things just in case we need like we tend to learn or plan for or, you know, just in case instead of waiting for the time when you actually need that thing and then learn that whatever it is, right? So as an entrepreneur who's building a company, I'm constantly doing something different every day a different every week, okay, now I need to be an expert in real estate because I'm trying to negotiate a lease, okay, now I need to be an expert in fundraising because I'm doing fundraising. Okay, now I need to be an expert in hiring, right? Because I'm trying I'm trying to hire a big executive away from a big corporate competitor. So it's like, instead of learning all these things, and then going and starting a company just start the damn company. Right and then when you need to hire that Executive you can read that book, okay? When you need to do you know, maybe God forbid you need to do around well, you can learn that skill by reading that book. And it's like, you're never going to have the perfect time to begin your journey towards where you're going with like, just get started and figure it out as we go. And that goes to the fitness as well. Just get started, go for a walk tomorrow morning, listen to a podcast by Zach auto on the art of getting fit or whatever, right? And then you figure your diet out as you go. Don't sit down for three days brooding about or which workout should I do? And what's the optimal workout program? And and what's the optimal diet, just just get started and figure that out as you go, you know, and that's a real bit of insight that my younger self, I wish I internalize that at a younger age.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, well, that definitely makes two of us, because I consider myself and I don't say this, jokingly I say this completely. And totally seriously, I'm a recovering perfectionist. With a massive case of overthink itis. You're five years into training for American Ninja Warrior, I still find myself when I should be working out looking at the calendar, figuring out what I'm supposed to be doing next, when it's like, you could be doing pull ups right now. But instead, you're thinking about the workout that you're you should be doing tomorrow, making sure it's the perfect one. I'm like, just stop doing it. Just actually do the thing, right? I get stuck on that cycle all the time.

Eddy Roche

Right? Yep. Yeah, it's a great metaphor for so many, you know, different examples of procrastination, but just just get started and just start now, you know, tying it back to the original, the title on that podcast, you know, you come at it from so many different angles, but whatever it is just thought now, you know, yeah, like so I think best time was yesterday.

Zack Arnold

Exactly. So you've probably already answered this question. But I wanted to get into this just one little layer deeper, because I've started building a community fitness program that's kind of sort of similar to yours. But it's very specific to training for Spartan Races and obstacle course racing. So it's bringing people that are massively outside their fitness, comfort zone. And it's not just getting fit and healthy. But it's really overcoming real obstacles that are very, very scary in a safe environment, but very much pushing them into a place of oh my god, I don't know if I can do this or not to really help them understand the voices in their head are totally full of it. And they're capable of doing more than they could even Debby's got stories like this just from even two weeks ago. But the most common objection that I hear, and I would love to know how you would respond to this. And again, you may have already covered this, but I think we can go into the nuance of it more. When I reach out to people and say I'm putting together this Spartan training group, I have an onslaught of people that say, Oh, my God, I've always wanted to run a Spartan Race, this would be so much fun, I'm going to reach out the next time you're doing it because I need to get in shape. So I can then join your program. And I can register for the race. And I'm just like, it's the exact opposite order, and register for the race, you join the program, then you figure out how to get started, right. So I'm sure you've had people where you've either been recruiting or talking to them, you just randomly meet them at the beach like, Oh, I'd love to join your program, but I gotta get in shape first.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. Yeah. And look, it's not funny. I mean, I can understand where they're coming from, right? I mean, people have, you know, reasons they're stuck in those little patterns, or that they're so hesitant to jump in with two feet. It's easier said than done. But yeah, of course, that's very common, very, very common. And I mean, we try you know, at dominate, as you mentioned earlier, we're a lot outdoor fitness business, we run, you know, big group classes, every hour on the hour, 10 classes a day, here on the west side of Los Angeles, and we really lean into fun, you know, we make it warm and inviting and approachable, we really do everything in our power to make it as warm and inviting, and inclusive, as possible. And we really try to do away with all the elitism and the sort of be intimidating, you know, tough guy, fitness stuff. And yet still, even despite our best efforts, people still, you know, might walk by our workout, and they see a big group of people of all different, you know, fitness levels working out together, and they're intimidated. And they and they shy away from joining. And so fitness itself is, is very intimidating, especially for people who aren't experienced, maybe they weren't a high school athlete or a college athlete, maybe they've never had a workout, you know, programming of any kind. And so they, it's hard, you know, the longer that goes on, the harder it is to break into that sort of lifestyle, right? Or at least mentally there's a mental block where it's like, oh, that's not for me. I'm not one of those. I'm right. But everyone's an athlete. Really everyone has a body if you have to, you know, anyone who wants to work out can work out. But they, they hesitate to join. So yeah, so anyway, all of that to say, Yeah, we do have people who really hesitate to just jump in and sign up and figure it out as they go, because, you know, they want to intimidated. I think that's the best way of putting it.

Zack Arnold

So how do we help somebody overcome that intimidation factor where they're making all the excuses, some of which are valid, some of which are voices in their head, but whether they're literally physically walking by your workout, they watch a video on Instagram and we'll get more into the psychology of Instagram later because I know you have your feelings and I have my field. But somehow somebody is exposed to the work that you're doing and all of a sudden they see people doing lunges or they're swinging kettlebells or like No, no That's too hard for me. How do you help people overcome the barrier that it's like, Listen, this is about community. all fitness levels are welcome, because this is a challenge that I still have is scaring people away. Because I'm very energetic. I'm very intimidating. But I also want to come off as compassionate, empathetic, and I want to help you, but it still scares some people. So how do you overcome that factor? Knowing you work with people of all fitness levels?

Eddy Roche

Yeah, totally. So I mean, the best way for people to get involved in a workout program, right is for for a friend who they trust, they feel safe around, and who they feel comfortable with, to invite them right and to right, like if someone's bringing their friend, and their friend has basically given us the mark of approval and said, yeah, no dominators for people like us dominates, great, you're gonna love it, trust me, you know, and he's awesome. Don't be intimidated, just come with me and get through the warmup and see how. So that's the first option. And then the second option is if they, you know, if a friend hasn't brought them, and it's basically just, you know, they're gonna have to come on their own, then it comes down to our ability as a team as a staff and as a brand to communicate with them, whether it's through digital marketing or email marketing, or, or just in person when they arrive, or when they pass by, we're actually operating out in public. So we get hundreds of people passing by every day on the, on the boardwalk here in Santa Monica. And you'll see people sort of, you know, their eyes will wander in our direction, and they'll look and then they'll look away, and then I'll kind of look back, and then they'll look away. And in the early days that I was running the workouts, you know, doing the checking everyone in doing everything myself, so I would have to make a note of who's paying attention from the boardwalk whose eyes are wandering over here. And then I would sprint over and in five or 10 seconds, because I've got the workout happening, I couldn't leave for too long, I would basically give them like the 10 second pitch Hey, on any like, I'd love you to come to join our workout, you're gonna love it, you know, I promise you, it's gonna be so much fun. You know, it's all different levels of athletes. So, you know, I think your question was, how do we help people and it's like, for us, it's literally getting in front of them and just convincing them like, Hey, this is for you, as well. That's how we do it. You know, that's, that's how we've attracted people is just basically, you know, speaking to them and saying, Hey, look, telling them, hey, everything's gonna be fine, you're gonna love it, trust me, you know, maybe you drop a joke, you let them know, hey, it's light hearted, it's fine, it's not going to be hardcore. And that tends to you know, a lot of people sort of, okay, I'll give it a try, I don't think it's for me, and then I'm just telling them, they're gonna trust me, it's, it's for everybody. And it really is, you know, we've had guys in their mid 70s out there with us, you know, at dominate just loving the workout, because every exercise can be modified based on your biomechanical sort of, you know, current, you know, the condition of your body or, you know, your level of experience. So,

Zack Arnold

So there's a couple of things that I want to dig into even deeper, one of which is the idea of it being fun. And the second of which is the idea of being able to modify, because I think so many people view fitness, especially the beginning of a fitness journey, it doesn't matter what your age is, if you don't have the experience or the background. Number one, there's just this idea that there's no pain, no gain, exercise is a form of suffering with no short term benefit. And it's only about long term benefit, exercise, and fun, not synonyms for most people, right. And then the second idea of, well, I'm not strong enough to do all of these things. But if I have to modify or do push ups on my knees, or whatever it is, and that means I'm failing, and I look bad. So how do you help both make it fun but accessible to everybody?

Eddy Roche

Yeah, you know, it really comes for us, right? For our program. And this might be specific to us or to boutique fitness in general, but it's all about the way in which the trainer conducts the class, right? How are they communicating? And they're communicating, you know, in a friendly way? Are they are they empathizing with those individuals who might be intimidated, or, or self conscious, or, you know, and there's a way that I have trained all of our trainers to be able to make those people identify those people, and then obviously, make them feel safe, make them feel comfortable? Let them know that not only you know, are they here, but they're exactly they're doing really, really a great job. Right? So like, if I've got someone who's ex military or was a pro athlete, right, and I say I look at him and they say, Oh, great work, Daniel, you're crushing it, right because he's knocking out you know, push ups at breakneck speed. Well, I might turn around to Sally who's you know, in her mid 50s and just getting back into fitness after a long break. Maybe she wasn't active during COVID and she might be doing those push ups on her knees and she might be going a lot slower. But I'm still gonna say Sally, you are crushing it because she is she's only competing against yourself, you know and so for a coach to have the wherewithal to understand that you know, everybody's just out there competing with themselves and to be able to understand when someone's truly giving it their best and when they are crushing it and then when maybe someone does need a friendly Hey, come on, you got this let's go a little bit deeper. Let's go a little bit you know, and so being able to cater your coaching and your your verbal coaching to the level of athlete and being able to empathize with and understand their limitations and and then just reminding people you know, a lot of people you know, Chad to say, but maybe they just don't have the coaching or you know, they don't have access to the coaches but you know, being able to remind people looking people square in the eyes and say, hey, you know, and I'll just use Sally as an example. not a real person but

Zack Arnold

you really like Sally, she's one of your best clients. It sounds like

Eddy Roche

just you know, let's just pretend you've got Sally in the crowd. Maybe she's you know, she hasn't been working out much during COVID. Maybe she's put on some weight. Maybe she's, you know, middle aged and she's feeling a little self conscious. But you know, looking Sally in the eyes, at the end of it have a true 40 seconds of hard exercise after she's given her best, no matter how many reps you did doesn't matter. And just say, Hey, Sally, that was a really great effort. Well done. That's incredible. Let's keep that effort up, you know. And then at the end of eight rounds, she Sally's feeling amazing. She got the endorphins rushing, she's feeling like, wow, you know, I forgot how fun this is. And then just that reinforcement, that positive reinforcement, Hey, Sally, that was an incredible effort, you're already looking fantastic. You know, maybe don't focus on that. But there's ways to encourage people, right is what I'm getting at. And if you can encourage people and just remind them that, hey, you're really strong. And hey, you did a great job today, getting out of bed when you didn't want to, you didn't hit snooze, you made it after you got through the warm up, and you just completed a really intense workout. And you should be proud of that. Go and grab a cup of coffee and have a beautiful day, you know, and then they leave. And that brimming with confidence. And it's just a change of state. You know, I mean, I'm so fortunate to be able to do this career and get paid to do it. But, you know, we see people come to dominate. And they're, you know, low self esteem, hanging their heads, low energy. And within a matter of three, four or five sessions, literally, you just see a transformation. And it's like, wow, this is so powerful. Like, I've seen it so many hundreds of times that it's just, it's normal for me now, to see that and to you know, you're expected. But anyway, tying it back to your question, Zack, I think it was, you know, how do you encourage people, right, when they are intimidated? Or

Zack Arnold

How do you make it fun and accessible to all levels and encourage modifications?

Eddy Roche

That's it, I think, you know, as simple as it sounds. And as cliche as it may sound, it's, it's the positive reinforcement. And but also not just rehearse, you know, not just rehearse sort of just BS just, you know, saying this and that because it's a script, but we're really making note of people who are showing up and giving it their best effort and paying attention to have they come back three times this week. Wow. Okay, that deserves recognition, right? Or, or noticing, like, Oh, hey, wow, she grabbed the 20 pounds for her deadlift today, she was grabbing the, you know, the 15 last week? Oh, great. Well, I see that you, you know, just being able to identify when someone's really doing their best and then giving them that part, positive encouragement, and reinforcement, and helping them along their way on their journey and just making, you know, creating a safe environment where they don't feel like they're competing with anyone, you know, it's not a competition out there. Everybody's just there to get better for themselves. And making it fun as well, Zach, you know, I think, you know, we, we do a great job at dominate, my trainers do a great job, our trainers do a great job of making it fun, you know, putting smiles on I like to say putting smiles on dials, you know, making people laugh. It says this is you didn't ask me this question is that what I'm gonna dive into a little sub tangent, because it's important, the most, you know, the best workout for anyone out there, and especially if your audience that because we're not talking about, you know, necessarily professional athletes, but just just regular people who are, you know, workflow professionals, or whatever the best workout program is the one you enjoy. That's it. And you know, this is like such a, it's almost a secret because the health and wellness industry, because it's such a big, it's such a big business, and there's so much many dollars to be made by selling a certain smoothie, or a certain workout program, or a certain, but the reality is, you know, and I'm sorry, if this doesn't fit into the standard sort of narrative, but they all work. Every every diet can work, right, every workout program can work, what's most important is that the average person finds one that they enjoy, because if they don't enjoy it, well, first of all, that's just a shame to be doing something every day that you don't enjoy, but you're not going to be able to do it for long enough consistently enough to actually reap the rewards, right? We talked about the benefits that fitness offers, everyone knows, we can talk about them on this podcast that everybody knows what fitness can do to change your body and change your mental state. But the secret is, you don't get those rewards, unless you do the fitness thing for a really long time, right? four months, five months, six months, seven months, eight months. And then you know, the more advanced you get in your in your health and your fitness, the more consistent, right you have to be to then continue seeing those incremental gains. But you know, you need to find an activity you love doing. And so it dominate more than anything else, you know, we want to create a safe environment. And people want to make sure they feel safe, and they have an effective workout. But we want to make it really, really fun. So that they come back over and over and over for as long as it takes for them to see those those physical gains. You know,

Zack Arnold

I'm so glad you brought up this point, because I think it's so immensely important that people understand that, like you said, All workout programs are successful for the right people. And it's about finding something that you enjoy that isn't punishment, and that more likely in your mind is not short term gains, right? Like the world is filled with 90 day total life transformation programs. I mean, my fitness mentor, Tony Horton is the godfather of the modern movement of Home Fitness and p90x and everything else, right. Yeah. But even he's learned at the end of the day that you can get to transformation in 90 days, but it doesn't mean you're going to lose Long term, change your lifestyles and change your identity because he's seen so many people that have the before and after patient picture from p90x, totally ripped 12. Pack Abs. Two years later, they've gained all their old weight back and then some because p90x for them and not for everybody. But for certain people was a slog. I just have to torture myself for 90 days day 91. I am officially fit. I'm done. And then six months later. So how did this happen? Right? And I'm a member of that I've been through all of his p90x programs, finding myself months later, like, how did I get back here until I realized that it wasn't just about the program or the Before and After slogging through it, it was I need to design a lifestyle in which I gravitate to fitness and want to do it. And like you said, it has to be enjoyable. And when I've always said about the fitness industry and the individual programs, like you said, they work for certain people. But the success rate for most of these short term programs is incredibly low. But I've always said in return that long, long term sustainable lifestyle change is not a multibillion dollar industry. Because it's kind of boring, you want to think that if I just put in the effort for 90 days, I'm going to be Superman or Superwoman. As opposed to God, I've got to do this for years. But once you adopt the long term mindset, like I'm five years in to the ninja journey, 10 years into the obstacle course racing, Spartan journey. And if I miss a workout or two, it's not like, well, I failed, and I got to start over. Because I had 90 days to be successful. It's my identity is I'm now somebody that focuses on fitness and health and nutrition, and sleep and all these other things. So if I skip a workout here or there, or I change the regimen, it's fine. But it takes a long time for it to become a part of your identity.

Eddy Roche

Absolutely. Yeah, no, totally. And I think, you know, it's, you know, health. And fitness is one of these things like a lot of other lessons in life that we hear over and over and over, we might hear it, we might read it, we might hear it on a podcast. But until we truly live it, that's when we really learn and internalize these bits of wisdom. So I think, yeah, people maybe have to go through the p90x, write something like it, and then crash and then come off the wet bandwagon, and then jump back on and then fall off, and then jump back on and then fall off. And by the time we're all middle age, you know, we've all had like 16 transformations and 18 different diets, and, but that's okay, you know, as long as we keep evolving, and every, you know, we move forwards. I think eventually, we all sort of the Wiser we get and I've noticed this with, you know, people who are older, they start to converge on a consensus, which is like, hey, actually, none of those like crash diets or like crash workout programs were really the end like the finish line, they were all just something that I did for a certain chapter. But what we really care about most people, right, there might be one or 2% of us who want to have six pack abs and be crazy, ripped, and crazy, fast and strong. But most people just want to have self esteem, they want to be able to play with their kids, they want to have mobility, they want to look good and feel good, right? And they want to have longevity. And so the reality is, you know, that's, that's, that's something that's achievable for all of us, right, all we got to do is we've got to move often we've got to find a way of moving, that's fun, that we want to do often enough. And then the third sort of thing I'd like to recommend is variety. You know, keep it interesting, if you're hardcore, like you might be really into Ninja Warrior Training, I might be really into triathlon, but we're exceptional, you know, most people they want, they need array, because they'll get bored at any given sport. If people just do one sport, they're gonna get bored, and then they're gonna fall off the bandwagon. So I like to encourage people just as a blanket, sort of recommendation or prescription I like to say, move as frequently as often as you can, you know, find a way to move it's fun, and then move in different ways, right, don't move the same way every day. And that might mean telling someone who's been coming to dominate five days a week, hey, you should mix up your routine, I want you to come to dominate three times a week, and I want you to go and do yoga one day, and I want you to go for an ocean swing. You know what I mean? Because I'm ultimately looking out for the long term longevity and like they're, you know, trying to help them achieve that insight, which is people want to look good. People want to feel good. People want longevity, right? And people want to be able to you know, throw football with a kid for baseball their kids go out for a walk with the grandkids you know, that kind of thing. And if people have a league goals, that's great. Go for it. But most people don't. You know, most people just want to feel good.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, for me it started as I was sitting cross legged on the ground with my I think still infant son, he might have been maybe one or two somewhere in that range. And getting up off the floor at 30 years old. I felt like I was 100 Yeah. creaks and groans oh my god, my lower back and I was like, how I'm not 100 years old. I'm 30 years old. If it's like this at 30 Imagine life at 50 or beyond and like this is not going to be my future. So now having done all the things that we've talked about, I move better feel better have more energy than when I was 20 Easily. There's still every once in a while. I'm reminded like Oh yeah, I'm 43 years old bro. I got to work out the kink in my neck. That's also just because of the the extreme level of torture that I put myself through. So I'm I'm working a very different level as far as intensity and skill level. But if I were doing something more along the lines of what you do with all skill levels and age levels, I probably wouldn't deal with the more like Severe Acute things that I've created. But it for me, it's just all about the fact that when I get up out of bed, I bend over to put my socks on, I take a walk around the block, and like, I just feel good, right. And that also makes me much better at what I do for a living, even though despite the fact that for a living, I'm in front of a computer, I'm contained in a small space, often in a dark room, no windows, right? No fresh air. But because I put myself in these positions to prioritize fitness, I'm actually cognitively, a much stronger and much more focused person. And this is one of those pieces that I feel so many people miss. Oh, I don't I don't have time to exercise. I just got to focus on the career right now. Right?

Eddy Roche

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a great point, Zack, and I'm sure you've, you've sort of spoken about this. You've spoken about this with other guests. But yeah, it's not just about the physical benefits, right? It's not even that the physical benefits might be less than half of the benefits, which are there to be gained right from from having a consistent physical workout regimen. It's just incredible. Especially, I mean, I know a lot of your followers and fans are creatives. Right? So these are people whose you know, ability to think clearly and be creative. Literally, you know, generate their output, you know, I mean, a physical workout program, we the first thing I would prescribe to that kind of person, right? Because and it might be counterintuitive, but like, if you just get a light sweat every morning, whether it's 30 minutes, 45 minutes, you know, something simple or every other day, right. And then on the every other day, go for a walk for a hike, nothing too intense, nothing crazy, you know, we're not we don't have to torture ourselves every day. But even something just consistently, like, you know, three high intensity exercises or workouts per week, plus, you know, a lots of get your 10,000 steps per day. I mean, your creative output compared with us at entry person who's not doing anything consistently at all, your creative output is going to be exponentially better. Right. And I've felt that you felt that. Yeah, and I was even Zach was, you know, I was obviously more of a high level athlete, you know, than most people, but still, I was someone who did have an offseason, and had periods of prolonged like, like long periods of no exercise. And during those, I would call themselves I would fall into depression. Like really, exercise is almost as if it's like an antidepressant for me, you know, like, if I have whether I, you know, I've had periods where I've broken my arm, or I've had, I actually got sick, I got shingles once where I couldn't train for a month. And I fell into a really deep, dark depression at those moments. And it just made me realize, Wow, I truly am a whole different person, Mike biocat, like my chemistry is, something's not right up top when I don't exercise. And so I've I've taken you know, that for granted my entire life. But during those brief moments, when exercise was ripped away from me, for one reason or another, and even early in my journey, as an entrepreneur, when there were weeks where I did fall into the trap of prioritizing work ahead of my foot, my physical well being, and I did you know, sometimes I went, I'm ashamed to say two or three weeks without working out, because I was so focused on my, my company. And then I would fall into these massive mental slumps, and my productivity would fall through the floor. And just like you, I started getting the back pains and the knee pain. And then I woke up and I was like, What the hell, like I'm not, you know, I'm not just automatically going to be this athlete, like, I've got to stay consistent here, you know, or I'm going to be very quickly a normal person with all the same ailments as the average, you know, average American. So anyway, so I've had moments of just reminders, you know, the universe kind of reminds me like, Hey, you're very lucky to be as physically healthy and fit as you are. But like, the reason you are is because you, you set aside that time every day to prioritize it, and you need to continue to do that. Otherwise, you're not going to be as creative, you're not going to be as clever as witty, as fast as you know, positive, even my positivity is something that goes out the window, you know, if I'm not able to exercise. And so, you know, that's one of the things I feel I've talked to so many young men, Zack, who might see what I've created in my companies and whatnot. Now I didn't, you know, you know, it all just comes so easy to you. And this is so great. And I'm like, you know, put my arm around his head Mate, I'm telling you, right now, you can achieve, you know, whatever you set your mind to just start with one thing, which is, I'm going to take care of my physical well being, I'm going to get you know, I'm going to get in good shape, I'm gonna look after myself, you know, and I always say start there, no matter how deep and you know, deep of a hole you've done for yourself how to get started with fitness. And it's just so incredible time and time again, that tends to, you know, the flywheel gets get started. And it's a really great way to build momentum in your life as a young person. Oh, at any stage of your life.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, at any stage for sure. And I I second, everything you said. And there's one that I really want to emphasize that I think is important. And you had said that exercise and fitness is like an antidepressant to me and everything about that as right, except it's not that way to you. It's that way to human beings. And I think that's a piece that so many people don't understand that it took me a while to figure out as well, is that, by the way, as an entrepreneur, I am so guilty of being in the position of working late hours writing an article about the importance of work life balance and stepping back and like yeah, what am I doing? Why am I so staying up late writing about the importance of work life balance, right? So it's so hard to not be a hypocrite, right, because my default tendency, I'm a recovering workaholic, and I'm talking about work life balance and trying to make sure you prioritize fitness and family and everything else. And I still fall into all those traps. But it's so important to me that whatever it is that I'm sharing, or teaching that I'm sharing it authentically, which means every once in a while, I have to send a newsletter it's like, so I burned myself out because I work too hard. Here are the lessons that I've learned this time, right. And I feel as I'm sharing those things, it's okay to still be making those mistakes. But when it comes to being an entrepreneur, that's one of the biggest fears that I know that I have faced for years and still face periodically. And I know that this is even something we talked about right before we started this conversation. It's like, who am I to help these people if I'm not the expert on this? So I want to make the transition more to being an entrepreneur and talk a little bit more about that journey? Because we've talked so far about what it is that you do. We've talked a lot about how you do it. We haven't talked about why. And as you may already know, because it sounds like you're familiar with the entrepreneur world. And we probably read all the same books. There's this concept of starting with why. Yeah, and we often don't buy what somebody is selling, we buy, why they are selling it, and you have a really interesting story that led you to making the decision. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. So why first decided to become an entrepreneur, and then what eventually led to your various endeavors that then led to this one.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, so I guess Okay, so the question is, Why did I become an entrepreneur? I'll just, I'll just speak transparently about where my mind goes. So it was always it was always on the cards. For me. It was just it was just always was, I think, you know, if you start from my very, very first memories growing up as a young child, my father was an entrepreneur, right? So I was in a household where, you know, Dad was to provide a job as a creator, deadhead design company, we were constantly surrounded by, you know, his employees. And I always looked at my father as, as a communal figure and a leader. And I think, you know, like, many, many kids do that. I just looked up to him. And I think I just always assumed, oh, I'm gonna have my company one day, too, right? And so that's in the really early stages of my life. And then as I grew up, and I kind of grew into my own person and became, you know, who I am, I was just always somebody who did things my way, almost to like to a fault. Certainly, right. I was very headstrong as a kid. Even I'm ashamed to say probably a bit arrogant as a kid, right? Like, just was so single minded. I couldn't be told one way or another, what to do, what to say what to wear, where to go. I just couldn't be told. And, and, again, I'm not I'm not proud of that. But if you asked me, you know, why am I the way I've always been this way. You know, and obviously, I'd like to think that as I evolved and matured, you know, some of the arrogance and whatnot, that that, you know, changed and went away. But, but that's how I was, as a kid, I was very single minded. I actually, you know, wasn't a great student. I was I was a very competitive student in my youth. And then when I was in middle school, in high school, like many kids, you know, got sort of, I was more interested in making people laugh and being popular and that kind of stuff, and actually dropped out of school entirely. When I was in ninth grade, I was more focused on my sports. By that point, I just wanted to be a professional athlete. I had no interest in school, anything that didn't help me become a world champion athlete, just, you know, it was a waste of my time. And yeah, I dropped out of school, and I had an opportunity to go and travel to Costa Rica and play soccer there. So I did that. And then I played soccer in a few different places all over the world. And then eventually, long story short, I became a professional triathlete, which is a different sport entirely. But again, that single minded focus, I found something new that I was obsessed with the soccer thing wasn't working out, I just never got to the levels that I hoped to get to, by the time I was 18. So I just pivoted and went wholeheartedly into triathlon. And, and yeah, I was just always someone who lived life on my own terms. I was very fortunate to be in a position to chase my dreams and to do the things that I wanted to do. At a young age, had to support my parents from a very young age. And then later on in life long story short, I pivoted away from athletics, like many sort of athletes, I was in a position where I could have continued in my athletic pursuits, and I could have been Michael journeyman, sort of middle of the pack back in the pack professional who would have struggled financially, I just wasn't that gifted. To be fair, like I wasn't that talented. I was extremely passionate, and probably the most passionate pro athlete on the planet, but I just wasn't that physically gifted. So I moved on. And at that point in my my life, my parents actually had been going through a tough time financially. And if you can imagine like, I didn't have a high school degree, I'm 20 years old, no high school degree, no college degree, no money to go back to college, right. So I kind of had no choice I was kind of like back myself into a corner at that point in my life. So I was like, you know, waiting tables and you know, bussing tables and bartending and doing all the jobs that you can do without, you know, without having to have a college degree and trying to optimize my income that way. But it was sort of like, hey, if I want to actually make something of myself, I'm gonna have to start my own company because no one's You know, employment, I've got nothing going like I'm gonna, you know, what am I going to say, I've been a pro athlete, you know, traveling the world riding my bike six hours a day, but it doesn't do much for you when you're applying for a job, you know, so I was sort of backed into a corner. But at the same time, I was very determined and confident that I could start a company. And so that's when my entrepreneurial journey began. I started dabbling and I did a bit of this and a bit of that for a better part of a decade that I don't know, how did you have to get into all that, but I did start several companies, none of them works.

Zack Arnold

Oh, I want to dabble. I want to, I want to dig. Because one of the biggest concepts that we talked about on the show is the concept of failure, and managing failure and managing impostor syndrome. And the first thing that I want to say is, I talked about this a lot, I've even talked about it with my children, is that the way that our society is designed, at least in America, and I know that in most first world countries, it's very similar. We are trained and conditioned to be educated in a certain way to enter the workforce. And we had this series of tests you have getting into high school, and you have a series of tests to Get Yourself Into College, and then there's a secondary school or there's advanced degrees, right all to get you ready for a profession. And there's this sense of I have failed, if I haven't met all these certain requirements, right. So it's the sense of, Well, I don't have a college degree. So who am I, but there are so many entrepreneurs, some of them literally, the biggest movers and shakers that have changed the direction of our entire planet are people that dropped out of high school dropped out of college, because they see the world differently, and they're problem solvers. And we quit Well, if you fail high school or college, it must be because of lack of intelligence or work ethic. Sometimes, we just see the world differently, I was conditioned to be the best that I possibly could be through the system. Because both my parents the you know, they both had college degrees and master's degrees, and they both work professionals. So for me, success in high school in college wasn't even an option. It was just by sheer discipline and force, I had no choice but to be at the top of my class. But I think that if I had more freedom, in a sense not to say that my parents were stifling me, they always encouraged me to be who I wanted to be and pursue the things that I wanted to pursue. But it never occurred to me that I could be an entrepreneur and not graduate from college. So I went the professional route until I realized one day, I really suck at working for people. I'm really miserable working for people. And I want to do things my way and try my own ideas. But with that comes a lot more failure because you no longer have structure in the world, you no longer are able to say I know this craft your successful business that requires my craft, we're a good fit, you're kind of starting from a blank slate. So now we'd like to dabble with some of these ideas that you tried and how you manage the failures. Because if you hadn't managed them properly, you and I wouldn't be talking today about your dominate fitness business. So talk to me about some of these endeavors along this path where you had this responsibility. I now must help support the family. Let me figure it out. What did you try?

Eddy Roche

Wow. So yeah, it's I guess it's a decade ago now. So yeah, okay. You can imagine I was like a washed up athlete, I didn't have any money. I had, in fact, a ton of credit card debt. And I was like, wow, I really shot myself in the foot here. You know, I had everything given to me on a silver platter. Growing up, I had every opportunity, all of my close friends. By the way, I grew up in sort of a well to do neighborhood with, you know, people Southern California neighborhood where there was a lot of affluent families around. So a lot of my best friends, they were all graduating out of ivy league schools and whatnot. And here I was with like, you know, my greatest asset I was living out of my family's old beat up. Escalade, like a big, you know, SUV that was like 20 years old, 250,000 miles on it. I had a carbon fiber bicycle, which was my most precious asset, like $10,000, I'd sold all the rest of them. And I was like, wow, I'm really in a pickle here. Right? And I'm, I'm like, and it was almost like a challenge. But I don't know, it was weird. I was like, it was hard. Don't get me wrong, it was really hard. But I sort of remember thinking, like, I'm gonna figure this out, like, it's gonna be okay, I'm gonna start a big company, I'm gonna change the world, everything's gonna be great. Like, I always had that sort of very irrational optimism about me. And so anyway, it was really hard. I basically was doing the waiting tables and bussing tables, and all that stuff that you do, to make ends meet. And I started, actually, I had a buddy from Australia, and we, you know, we're reading all the headlines about this tech company, and that company, you know, raising monies at observed valuation. And we're like, Okay, well, the technology thing seems like a pretty great way to make money. Let's try something in that space. So these are like, you know, year long project. Some of these things went on multiple years, but I'll just really quickly condensed down my decades of work experience into a couple of paragraphs, I started a company called timer grant, it was effectively a photo sharing tool that enabled you to schedule your posts to Instagram. And that was quite a novel concept at the time. This was pre HootSuite pre buffer, and I think even Instagram now have the scheduling feature in the app. But anyway, we did that. We had to pitch we didn't know anything about coding or programming. I mean, I was totally just a rookie, right? But I was so naive. So I was like, Yeah, I can, I can do this. So I picked one of the more experienced software developers in Australia, and they were so enamored with me and my business partner, and they thought it was a great idea. So they actually came in as equitable partners in the company and built out the software for, you know, a highly discounted rate. We ran that business for 18 months, we got our offices kicked, we didn't know what we were doing, right, we were just so naive, we probably missed an opportunity to capitalize and make some money. But we were just so naive. We didn't really know what we were doing. But I did get my feet wet. I did. I was introduced to several characters who played instrumental roles later on in my career. So it wasn't all for nothing. But your look, it all went to zero. And then I moved on to another startup, it was called Fashion cap, ended up becoming a co founder and COO there, it was another photo sharing tool that enabled fashion bloggers fashion brands, to tag the fashion products in their photos. And then their followers on the social platform could tap the tag items and shut them in the abdomen, we would split the cut, we would take a cut of the revenue. And again, that was normal at the time. This is many, many years ago before shoppable, Instagram and before all these other shopping platforms emerged. And again, it was just another step forwards. It wasn't quite the thing. But I took another step forward that to put one foot in front of the other. Okay, now I have experienced running a team and product managing Okay, and I have experienced fundraising. Now I have experienced, you know, allocating a marketing budget and thinking about, you know, how do I motivate team members ramping up, there's all these learning lessons baked into each of these products or projects, I like to call them, I hesitate to call them companies because none of them made no money. But you know, and I built another three or four startups, which I won't even bore you with the details, but they were all sort of social or consumer products for our consumer apps. And I was operating in varying capacities and all these different startups, I had no money to put in to any of these companies. So I was working for sweat equity at all of them. I learned you know, I've I've negotiated I mean, I learned skill of negotiation, I learned that before I was 2324 hours, probably more versed in negotiation, some of my friends working at big investment banks, right, because I was doing it all day, every day trying to convince people I was worth something when I was just a kid who hadn't even graduated high school, I've been riding a bike for six hours a day for the last decade. So it was a very unique work experience. And then I you know, eventually I even had periods where I got fed up with startups and I tried applying for some big companies because I was like, I'm done with all this startup business, I should just go get a nice salary and benefits and, and get on my feet. And no one would hire me because they were like you're overqualified. You know, you've been the COC or existence, this and that. And I was just, you know, applying for entry level roles. And they're like, you're overqualified. It's not going to work. Because they probably figured out that I didn't, I wasn't someone who was going to fit well, in your organization, who were you're being told what to do. And anyway, so I had a very interesting work backgrounds. And I did this and that this and that. And eventually around, I want to say 2827 years old, mid to late 20s. I sort of had reached my breaking point. I was just physically, spiritually and emotionally exhausted, I worked, you know, for free, at effectively a half a dozen startup. I was still waiting tables, I was still bussing tables, working at hotels, I figured out you know, how do I optimize my income after hours and on weekends, so that I can spend the majority of my day working on these big ticket startups where I can really, you know, lever up and create a big exit where I can help my family. And at 28. I still hadn't done that. And so I was like, I had this moment in my career, which changed my life forever. And it was like, Dude, look myself in the mirror. And for the first time, I asked myself the question, Zack, what if I never make it? What if I don't actually, what if I never build a billion dollar startup? Like, what if that never happens? And I was like, What do I want to do with this precious life? Um, well, I'm, you know, on the, I'm in the, you know, I'm past the first quarter is over, right? Like, I'm 26 years old going into q2, and I haven't done any of the things that I thought I was gonna do, you know, and I like to tell this story as like, I kind of anyway, that's where I was. So I said, you know, what, why don't I stop doing what I love? And what I'm really passionate about? And why don't I put the whole money thing aside? Forget about money for a second, forget about supporting everyone else, why don't you try supporting yourself? Before you worry about supporting, you know, and I took the pressure off myself. And I took a step back. And I thought, you know, I could create a great workout program and help young guys get fit in my sleep, right? Like, I've worked out under the tutelage of some of the world's best soccer coaches on three continents. I've traveled the world as a triathlete. I understand the human anatomy back to front, I'm effectively you know, without having a major in, in biology. I mean, I understand all the different training systems right periodization diet nutrition principles, like I am an expert, I just didn't have the schooling because I learned it by doing it. I was trying to buy firearms and athletes. So at 26 years old, I was like, Hey, why don't I just try selling workout programs and helping guys get fit? And I was like, let's just stop that put all this nonsense about startups and billion dollar startups aside, let's just let's do a personal training company. And you know, of course what happens within three months, right? I paid off all my credit card debt. I was crushed. I had more inbound requests for training than I knew what to do with and like, the personal training company took off. And I was sitting there at 2627 years old. And I'm like, Why didn't I just do this when I was 18? Like, I could have had an empire by now, you know? And it's like I was so I was so hell bent on reinventing the wheel and building the space shuttle. When it's like the answer was right there in front of me the whole time, all I had to do was what I loved most and what I was passionate about. And I'm so genuinely passionate about health and fitness. It just doesn't even feel like work. Like I'm having fun doing this, you know. And so, built the personal training companies. And I don't know how to get the original question now. But we're about 90% of the way through my last story. So I'll just keep going, we'll finish and we'll bring it to the Monday. Often, after I built my personal training company, I eventually realized an opportunity to sell healthy meals to my clients and to other personal trainers, clients here on the west side of LA. So I teamed up with a local restaurant chef and owner, a restaurant owner, Chef. And we started cooking healthy organic meals for my clients. So they could get results twice as fast, I started selling those meals to my buddies clients. And then that became next level meals. And that took off. And then finally, I decided that I had a full portfolio of clients in my personal training business, and I wanted to do something more scalable. And so I started to get that entrepreneurial itch again, where it's like, okay, now I've got myself, I'm looking after myself, I'm paying my bills, I've got income, how can I build something scalable, so that I can achieve maximum impact, right, I really do want to achieve, I want to I want to impact the world, I really want to build something which impacts the maximum amount of people and changes as many lives as possible. So that's when I started dominate. And that's when I began building what's now become the largest outdoor fitness community here in California. And, and that brings us to the current day. So that's sort of my, my arc, I went through a period of really difficult sort of consternation and failures, repeat trailers over and over and over. And then I took a big step back to take three steps forward sort of thing. And when I focused on my true passion, things just started working, you know, for the first time in my career, serendipity reared its head, you know, and it's just funny how that works. So I, you know, you always hear this, there's two sides of this argument. There's some people who say, like, just do what you're passionate about, follow your passion. And then you also have the contrarian viewpoint, which is like, no, like, follow your maximum contribution, don't just do what you're passionate about, because it might not be a business, I fall in the first camp, I tend to believe you should do what you're passionate about. And, you know, that might mean you build a company that's worth a million dollars might be mean, you build a company to a billion dollars. But if you're doing what you're passionate about, you know, I believe you're going to be able to do it for long enough to make an impact, right, and to help people and with the internet, especially, I think you're going to find an audience and find a market no matter how nice your passion is. So that's where I, that's where I start, when people ask me for advice on career, I can only tell them my story and tell them what worked for me, I can't tell them what's gonna work for them. But what worked for me was doing what I was passionate about,

Zack Arnold

I'm very glad we decided to dabble. Because that was a fantastic story. With so many insights, I could probably turn this into an entire part two of a conversation. But I'm gonna do I want to do my best to break it down to there's really two key things that I think are really important to break down even further. The first thing that I love, I literally got goosebumps when you said this. What if I never make it? And you are having a quarter life crisis? Yeah, many people don't realize this until their midlife so they're already mid to late 40s thinking, Oh, my God, my life didn't come out the way that it should have, right? And just what I call a case of the shadows, I should have been a billion dollar entrepreneur by now I should have a successful business or I should have kids or I should be married should have should have shut up right? And it goes back to this idea of when's the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. When is the next best time to start something today. But this this case of the shadows, and this idea of what if I never make it? Like that's a really scary question to ask yourself? Yeah, especially as a high school dropout, right, this living out of an Escalade has no degrees and can't get hired anywhere. It's pretty scary to ask yourself, What if I never actually make it? And this is all just in my head?

Eddy Roche

Right. Yeah, it started to feel that way. You know, my friends are getting legit drugs are making you know, some of the we're buying houses at that point. And I was like, shit, dude, like, I've got to figure something out here pretty soon. But yeah,

Zack Arnold

and there's also something else that I'm just blatantly and totally going to steal from you. Because I don't know if I've ever heard this term before. And you just kind of loosely threw it out. But to me, it encapsulates so many things about what is required to be successful as an entrepreneur. And I want to reframe this for anybody that's listening that saying, Oh, I'm not an entrepreneur, I'm just a freelancer. If you're a freelancer, and you provide a service to somebody, you are a business of one and you are the CEO of your business. So it's not just I'm an entrepreneur, I'm building a startup, I've got an app, I've got a company, I've got a service, I've got a team. If you're a perma Lance, or even you provide a craft to somebody full time, in a way nowadays in the gig economy, you are an entrepreneur and you are the CEO of your own business. And the term that you used, that I think is so important as a mindset is this word or this term that you use Is that I'm not even sure you realize you used it, but I loved it. Irrational optimism. Yeah, right. It's one thing to be optimistic, but I would firmly consider myself in the camp of somebody that is irrationally optimistic. Right. And that can that can be a slippery slope, where you guys be making up all these hopes and dreams that everybody on the outside is like, are you crazy. But I'm a big believer, and I want to find the furthest thing outside of my comfort zone that I'm still capable of maybe not even capable of today. But I know I'm capable of like the the ninja journey that I've been on five years ago. No way in hell, I could have done any of it. But I knew that I could, if I applied myself, which to me is a version of irrational optimism.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, love it. I think there's also another idea baked in him, Zack that I think is worth bringing up. You made a good point like I rebranded myself at a quarter life, right. But a lot of people have trouble with that, whether it's quarter life, midlife, whatever, in people have a lot of fear around this idea of rebranding themselves, right, because they've spent this whole life building this identity, right. And then they want to be consistent, right? Because this is the bias, they want to be consistent with that, and they're afraid to, you know, to really tell people what they really want to do, or to really be who they really are. And it's funny, because I remember being 26. And at that time, if you can just imagine Zack, like, I remember for one of my startups, I'd been interviewed by Entrepreneur Magazine, right? Like, we were kind of a hot commodity in the startup world here on the west side of LA. And, you know, I was going out to fancy dinners with all these big investors. And my brand or so I thought was, I'm the startup guy. I'm the CEO, I'm the guy who gets stuff done. I'm a really clever business person. And that was how my friends viewed me at that time. And then I remember thinking, I wanted to start a personal training business. And I wanted to go on Instagram and announce, hey, I started this personal training company, I don't want any of my friends who need help getting results to reach out to me. And that is, so it seems like such an obvious thing I should have done. But I was scared to do that. Because I was scared. What will all of my investor friends think? When one minute they think I'm this big, bad COO, I'm the next big thing. And then they see me, you know, basically saying soliciting private training sessions, right for 75 bucks a pop. And I was scared to take that step backwards, because I was scared that my personal brand would take a hit. But it was the best thing I ever did. And I know for a fact, because I speak to so many people who are doing one thing, but they have a calling outside of their current career, they have a calling, whether it's a creative calling, or a side project, or maybe it's an entirely new identity, who knows. But they're afraid to commit wholeheartedly to that thing that's calling them because they're afraid of what their family might think what their partner might think what their co workers might think what all their friends they grew up with, from high school, who they haven't seen 15 years might think. And it's so sad, because that's the number one thing that stops people from going after a life that's going to be truly fulfilling for them. And if I could just impress one thing upon upon people who have that nagging itch to scratch, they have that thing, whether it's a project that they putting off or relationship, whatever it is, just go for it, go for it. Because the reality is people are so absorbed with their own lives. They don't care what you do with yours, they just don't, you know, and it's like, it might be uncomfortable for five minutes, but it's gonna feel so relieving on the other side of that decision you make to jump into that new pursuit that new passion. And so I rebranded myself to the fitness guy. And it was funny, Zach, it only took six months. And all of a sudden, I was no longer the startup guy, I was the fitness guy, you know. And I thought that that shift might take years, and I might never get there. No, I mean, look at me. Now, Debby, Debby met me within a years, right. And here I am on this podcast, because Debby met me a year ago, she only knows me as the fitness guy. Right? So it's like, people should come into every day thinking like, this is day one of the rest of my life, and you can be whoever you want to be, you can wake up and decide to be something totally different to who you were yesterday. I know that's gonna set a lot of people free if they listened to that. So I really want to impress that upon people in, you know, these kinds of interviews. Yeah. And I may say, Well,

Zack Arnold

I can very much relate to all of this. And if people go back in the archives, and I'll put a link in our show notes, I have an entire podcast conversation with a psychiatrist or psychologist, I can't remember which a psychiatrist, psychiatrist at the time, this specialized in psychoanalysis, because I was going through a massive identity shift as I was going from being a craftsperson, to being an entrepreneur. And I essentially lost six months of my life to impostor syndrome, deep depression, deep anxiety, because I was trying to answer one simple question. It took me months to figure this out. And I go really deep and all this in this podcast interview. But essentially, the question was, if I'm not an editor anymore, who am I? Right, and that scared the crap out of me because literally since I was 12 years old, I always had the entrepreneurial spirit. I was always wired that way. I just didn't really know what that meant. But as of 12 years old, I was getting paid to edit stuff granted when I was 12. It was people's wedding videos or their kids, you know, little league, whatever it was, but I literally was earning income as an editor from being 12 years old. Until that present moment, it's still to this day, I still work part time doing editing jobs. The point being that once I made the shift, and I realized, like you said, I found a calling, editing is something that I was very good at storytelling is a craft that I'm very good at and adept at. But it wasn't my calling. But I wasn't allowing myself to embrace that. And it literally paralyze me. So I know what that impostor syndrome can feel like. And the fact that you work through it in six months is amazing. I'm on your five, I'm still making this identity transition and struggling with it. So it's very, very challenging for people to reveal Oh, yeah, I know, I just need to, you know, assume a new identity and get over the imposter syndrome. But it's very, very real.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, it is. Yeah. And I think the sad reality is people are too worried about what other people think, right? Because their reasons for not doing what would make them ultimately more happy and unfulfilled is that they're worried about what other people might think. And that's just, it's, it's the right that should not stop you from doing whatever it is in life that you want to do, you should just get after it. Because the reality is, no one cares, right. And it's ultimately it's your life, you get one life, do what makes you happy, do what makes you fulfilled. And in. Honestly, if people do that, I feel like they're going to actually find success or find more fulfillment, or be able to add more value to other people's lives, by being their true authentic self, whatever that means. You know, in the modern world, definitely, you can get everyone's got a side hustle, or at least they're thinking about what their side hustle might be, or their side project, we have the ability now to launch side projects, you know, to do you know, we're just more flexible, I think, than any point before. Now, in our history, as humans, we have the ability to dabble. So it's like, I always encourage people to do what they love.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, and I think that the the flexibility is something that is both great, because the internet and all the resources, but just frankly, from a financial standpoint, and with the cost of everything, nowadays, the cost of living, especially if you live in Los Angeles, or San Francisco or any of the big cities. But it's almost at the point where you can't even have a comfortable middle class living with just one regular sustainable job, you almost kind of have to have a side hustle to have any breathing room, which is why I think it's even more important for people to embrace that uncertainty and understand that they just need to start now and jump in. But one thing that I want to point out, one thing that I want to break down a little bit more is this idea of following your passion. Because like you said, there are a lot of opposing viewpoints to this. Mine is kind of sorta in the middle, which I could say about just about any viewpoint of anything ever, because that's kind of me, I'm always the one that sees both sides. And I find myself roughly in the middle of the spectrum, people would say you have to follow your passion and like, You got to be kind of cautious about that. And then there are others who say that's the worst career advice ever. I feel like you have to cautiously follow your passion. But for example, Mark Cuban says horrible advice. Follow your effort instead. So what do you think are some of the pitfalls of deciding? I'm just going to follow my passion blindly?

Eddy Roche

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a really great question. I actually this is this is kind of like one step higher. But if, you know, we think about invites advice in general, I really love like Peter TEALS approach to thinking through things where he's still mans, both sides of any given argument. So we understand well, on one hand, is what I could, you know, here's what I could understand, on the other hand, right. And I think I do that too. Like I could understand both arguments, I could understand the argument that no, you should follow your, you know, what, what Cuban says, or you can follow your contribution, like Ben Horowitz says, I come back to my life and my lived experience. So whenever I'm giving advice to someone, I always, you know, I preface it by saying, look, I can tell you what's worked for me. I don't know what's worked for you. And I'm sure you know, there's going to be 100 different sets of advice from 100 Different people giving advice, but I can tell people what to work for me. And, you know, your mileage may vary. So on the passion thing, yeah, of course, look, it would be insincere for me to say everybody should just follow their passion and they're destined for greatness. Like no, the reality is not everybody, you know, has the skills necessary to build a big company and to find success no matter what it is they do. Some people are more depth and more suited to building companies than others. But in the same vein, portfolio passion doesn't have to mean building a profitable company. following your passion could just mean you know, if you're passionate about art, don't get a blank canvas go and get some paint right and on a Friday night enjoy you know, making up look I think one of the pitfalls could be for following your passion if I was given that advice, what are some of the pitfalls if someone you know ditches their nine to five and throws all their stability out the window and goes healthful leather on you know, opening a gym? And they don't know the first thing about you know, opening gyms have they've done a market survey to understand what's the local competitive landscape look like? Do they understand, you know, what they're actually finding when they sign a financial like a lease, right? It's pretty complex agreement, do it? Do they even understand what Elise is, like? There's so much more that goes into starting a business than just having the passionate passion is a prerequisite but that's not going to get you to the finish line. So yeah, of course, I would caution people to take it one step at a time and to be realist. Think around what you can and can't do with your passion, right? Just because you have a passion and dogs doesn't mean you know, it's your God given right to build, you know, the next Petco, right? Like you might not be, you know, you might not have the skills, the requisite skills to build a big company. But, you know, again, I can understand both sides of the argument, I do encourage people to follow their passion, but where they take it and how far they take it, you know, that's, there's more things to consider more outside of just their passion, right. And their risk tolerance, like you said, we're addressing a middle aged audience, maybe a lot of people have kid, right. So they might, they might not be able, you might frustrate them to hear about my experience where I went all in on a company, they might not have that ability, if they've got kids, right. I was a young single guy, like, when I say I was, you know, in a bad position, many people would love to be in that position. 20 years old, living in the back of a car blank canvas for the rest of their lives. So I want to be wary of just being like, Yeah, whatever you're passionate about, go do that. You know, but I think, you know, I'm still still Manning both sides of the aisle. hope I'm making sense.

Zack Arnold

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Making sense. I think you're adding a lot of value to the conversation. And this is something that I'm still workshopping as well, if somebody said to me ask the same question. Do you think follow your passion is good advice or bad advice? I'm not sure I have an answer that I'm confident in yet. But I think the one of the things that I would say is that I think you should always embrace your passion. But following your passion is not always going to equal success. So one thing you said that's really interesting to me is like, if you are interested in passionate about painting, just buy a canvas and paint, right? So you should embrace that. But it doesn't necessarily mean my love of painting is going to equate to professional success and building a professional company because it might not equate with your skill sets. Or what does the process actually look like on a day to day basis? Right? So I realized that my calling is helping people to really simplify all of the challenges and struggles and obstacles in their life and figure out what's the next small step that I can take to work towards a more clearly defined version of who I want to become, which is very similar to what I did for 30 years as an editor is tell stories, right? You have a character, they're on a hero's journey. And I was taking all of the raw dailies, and I was simplifying it to a co cohesive story in which you're feeling a series of a moments, a series of emotions and experiencing a series of moments. That's essentially what I did as an editor was create moments, right? So now I'm essentially doing the same thing, but I don't have software anymore, and predetermined footage and scripts. I'm doing it with people. But I realized there was a lot of synergy and transferable skills between what I did before and what I'm doing now, which helped to lessen some of the impostor syndrome. But if it were just a matter of, oh, I'm passionate about helping people, that wouldn't have gotten me where I am now. So for me, that's, that's part of it. But I also think that if you decide to follow something that you're not passionate about at all, then all of a sudden you find yourself being successful at something and absolutely hating your life and feeling like you're trapped, and you can't get out because you've climbed up a ladder because of lifestyle creep. You've got mortgages, you've got car payments, you've got kids, if you didn't follow your passion, at least a little bit, that can lead to a very unfulfilling yet quote unquote, successful life.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, yeah. And I think I'm just thinking through this, you know, as if we were giving advice to a stranger, and they're like, oh, okay, actually follow my, I should follow my passion. I think that that advice to follow your passion, right? It's not, it's not going to guarantee you an outcome, right? Like, I can't guarantee that if someone follows my advice, that they're gonna have a great outcome. One thing I can guarantee is that if don't follow your passion, you will be miserable. Right? Like you are. That's not That's not fair. But if you if you you know, if you continue, if you know, there's this great quote from a buddy of mine Rich Roll, he says, if nothing changes, nothing changes. Right? So it's like, if you're unhappy with your life right now? Well, if you don't change anything, you can be sure that it's all you're not going to be happy a year from now. Right? So, you know, it doesn't have to be let's drop everything and bet the farm on on my passion, right? But, but it's like, let's take one foot and put it in front of the other, right, and let's start to dabble and let's start to try different things. So some of my friends and granted, a lot of them are very successful financially. They're so stuck in their ways or so paralyzed, that they're so fearful of coloring outside the lines that they wouldn't even dare deviate from the plan. Right? Like, they wouldn't even dare entertain the idea of, hey, maybe I'll spend my Saturdays on this little thing because this could be cool. I'm really passionate about like, you know, and that's fine. That's their decision is that you know, it's their life like live however they want to, but if you don't try, you know, I can't guarantee that if you try something that it's going to end well, but I can guarantee that if you never try, then you know this incredible life that you see guys like Zack Arnold and Eddie Roshan. Well, we get to do what we love, pay the bills, right? add value to other people's lives. And we're sitting here screaming from the mountaintops going guys. It's really fulfilling over here. We're doing what we love with putting smiles on faces. You never get that you never get to experience that if you don't at least try right you don't like so I just feel bad for people who are so afraid of trying to do something different. for what they're doing are so afraid of taking risks, I think risks is a great way of summarizing, so many people are so afraid of risk. And the real risk is not trying at all right? That's like another cliche thing you hear, it's so true, biggest risk would be to not take any risks at all, you know, because then you definitely never going to have an exceptional life that's exceptionally fulfilling, and exceptionally fun. And, you know, and so I think everybody agrees that to be able to, you know, do what you love every day, and to help other people. Like, that's pretty much the goal, right? Like, we all agree that, but then there's some people who are stuck in such a career or a path or something that they're like, yeah, that is the dream. But that's not for me. Right? Like, it's like, Well, if that's your attitude, and it's probably not, you know, but unfortunately, you might just be one fork in the road away from, you know, starting down a road that changes everything forever. And I think so many people are afraid to take that first step. So I would encourage people, if if, and many people might be happy with their life, and that's great. But if you do one of these people who's not happy, you have this call, and you have this thing inside your head, you have this thing that you've been dying to do, that you're scared of what people would think you're scared of, you know, what if I lose the money I spend on it? What if I waste time? What if it ends up you know, all coming to nothing? I always tell people just give it a shot. You know, the biggest risk is not doing it. So especially if you're passionate about it.

Zack Arnold

Ladies and gentlemen, that's what we call a mic drop a moment. Yeah. loved everything about that. The only thing that I want to add to it before we wrap up, is that when people ask me like, Isn't it scary to start a business? Or Isn't it scary to put yourself out there? Even like physically scared you do all the crazy obstacles with the water and the ropes and everything like yeah, it's terrifying. You know what scares me more? What scares me more is being on my deathbed and regretting the fact that I didn't try that scares. This scares the shit out of me, too. I just I picture that moment, whether it's in a week or 50 years, I don't know when it's going to be right. It's like you said, we're all going to fucking die. Yeah. So I do not want to be in a position where I'm like, Man, remember when I was 38? And I was thinking about American Ninja Warrior? Why didn't I do that? Like the pit in my stomach that creates just envisioning that terror is so much greater than the terror of I'm just going to show up to a workout and I'm going to figure out how to climb a rope. It's not that scary. It just scares me less than the ultimate fear.

Eddy Roche

Yeah, not exactly right now that yeah, it is scary. It is scary to think about having regret, you know, at the end of the life, I think about that as well, you know, and there's still, by the way, I'm not immune to this, right, I still got things that I wish I, you know, that it's like, I'm just calling to do something, but I haven't done it yet. It's like doing like, you know, take your own advice. It's

Zack Arnold

Yeah story of my life, I've got 75 years worth of callings that I need to check off the list so that it's a good urgency, but it's still an urgency. And you know, I like living towards that urgency. So you've given some amazing, amazing advice and insights and shared your story. And I appreciate all of it. And there's one last small piece of advice that I'd like you to give. And you're gonna give it by jumping into a time machine and traveling to yourself. When you've realized, I'm not going to be a professional soccer player. And I don't have a high school degree, and I have to figure out what the hell am I going to do with my life? What advice are you going to give yourself and you realize the path I thought I was on that I'm not on?

Eddy Roche

Oh, okay. Okay, what would I say to myself? You know, I'm sure if this is one of those things, I think we talked about this before the interview, like, this is one of those things, but tonight, I'm gonna be lying in bed. Damn, I should have said that, you know, because I'm gonna have time to think it through. But it's something that came to mind, Zach is I would just, I would tell myself to relax, and just tell myself to take the pressure off myself, and just remind myself of how much time I have. Because it sounds silly, right? And especially to us, because you know, a few years old of me, you probably think this sounds really silly, but at 20 years old, 21 whatever it was 22 I felt like I had missed the boat. I really felt like, This ship has sailed you really screwed this one up, dude. Like, you know, you can't go back to school, you can't go back to college, like you're an adult now. And you've squandered all of your potential. And you know, and I still don't get me wrong, I still had a lot of belief in myself, but there was definitely that voice in my head. Like, wow, like, you are a real loser. Like, you know, and it was sort of, for the first time in my life, I went from being like supremely confident to having low self esteem for a second, right before I regained sort of my, my, you know, my, my career, my whatever. So, yeah, I think I'll just say, mate, relax, you've got time. You know, I would just put that message. I would, I would remind myself that I've got plenty of time because, I mean, I've, yeah, I've I've screwed more companies up in the last 10 years, right then, like most people ever start, like I've, you know, I've had enough time to start and stop and start in, like 18 different careers. Right. And as long as you never give up and you just keep going. I'm a big believer that you know, it's provided that you truly given it 100% I really think and find some version of success. Right? Some version

Zack Arnold

mic drop moment number two right there, ladies and gentlemen. Absolutely fantastic advice, which by the way, I need to tell myself every day. Yeah, slow down. It's all gonna work out. Don't you don't have to go so fast, right. So that's advice I have to give myself all the time. So for anybody that's listening today that wants to follow you, they want to learn more in general, or they even literally want to go down to Santa Monica and they want to train with you what is the best way to connect and learn more?

Eddy Roche

Cool, thanks for that, Zack. So follow me on Instagram. I'm just @youredominating. Like you're dominating Y OU R E dominating so that. And then if they want to come and join us for a workout, we'd love to see them just DMN8.com. Just like the logo.

Zack Arnold

Look at us branding, how about that? Right? Yeah, awesome. Well, I can't thank you. I can't thank you enough for your time for sharing your story for being so candid, and most importantly, being authentic. Because as I think we both believe that is a necessary strategy to building a successful business in this 21st century world of lack of authenticity. So I appreciate you coming on just being yourself and being authentic and so glad to have you on the show today.

Eddy Roche

Zack, thank you so much, man. I'm very flattered that you even have me on so very, very grateful to be here and thanks for giving me a platform to share my story and I'd love to chat again, whether online or in person. Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai