Ep177: Mental Health is Not a Luxury…Even For “Top Guns” | with Eddie Hamilton, ACE [Pt 2]

Zack Arnold

Hello and welcome to episode number 177 of the Optimize Yourself Podcast. It means the world to me that with all of the podcast choices out there, you have chosen to invest your valuable time and attention with me. I promise you are not going to regret it after listening to part two of my interview today with none other than Eddie Hamilton, who is the editor of Top Gun Maverick, the last three Mission Impossible films Kick Ass 1 and 2 and X-Men First Class just to name a very small few. And in this second of two interviews with Eddie, and by the way, you can go back to part one, which is episode 176 if you haven't listened to it yet, he and I candidly discuss his experience editing Maverick, and what ultimately drove him to asking for help before it was too late. The grueling work hours that are required to produce blockbuster content can literally be deadly if you don't care for yourself properly. When your livelihood depends on your creativity, your mental health is no longer a luxury, it is a job requirement. But many of us have spent so many years or maybe our entire lives, ignoring our self care needs at the expense of our jobs, no matter the cost. And we don't actually know how to care for ourselves when the time comes that we have no other choice. Eddie recognized early in his career that he would have to take control of his mental and physical health and set boundaries if he was going to survive working in Hollywood at the highest level. But not even that was enough on this job. In today's conversation, which as a crazy aside, was actually recorded in 2019, before the pandemic and I had to wait to release this interview until the film came out. Eddie honestly shares the immense challenges and responsibilities that he bared while working on Maverick and he gives an inside honest and brutal look into challenges like managing burnout. summoning the courage to ask for help, and whether or not working at the highest level in the business is even worth the sacrifices. All right. Without further ado, my conversation with ACE editor Eddie Hamilton to access the shownotes for this episode with all of the bonus links and resources discussed today, as well as to subscribe, leave a review and more simply visit optimizeyourself.me/episode177. I'm here today with Eddie Hamilton who is the kick ass film editor of films like Kick Ass, Kick Ass 2, Mission Impossible Fallout, Kingsman The Golden Circle, Mission Impossible Rogue, you know what I could do this all day long. But seriously, reading off the amazing films that you've cut off of IMDb would waste like half of our episode, probably worth mentioning that you are busy in the middle of as we speak, editing the next Top Gun film Maverick. So the fact that you are willing to give 60 minutes of your time to me and my audience means the world to me. So I really appreciate you coming back for a second time on the show.

Eddie Hamilton

It's a pleasure, Zack, it's great to talk to you again.

Zack Arnold

Well, one thing that I can say that has happened finally after years and years of it not happening, we have actually inhabited the same space at the same time. When I talked, we'd never met in person. We knew each other through pictures and images. But we had the luxury of you being in LA right now working on Top Gun and we had dinner like real human beings.

Eddie Hamilton

Yeah, yeah, it was a great night. And I very much valued your advice and honesty in that dinner. You know, I had some things on my mind. And we were able to talk through some of those issues. And it's very useful to speak to a fellow editor who understands the kinds of day to day pressures that we all go through. And I also want to give a shout out to Alan Bell, who was incredibly generous and gave me a couple of hours of his time on a Sunday when I was feeling quite overwhelmed. One Sunday, and he was very, he gave me a lot of good advice and fresh perspectives on things which were which were very helpful.

Zack Arnold

Well, I recently had a really in depth conversation with Roger Barton, who like you has worked on some amazingly gigantic, huge movies done stuff with James Cameron and stuff with Michael Bay. And we talked all about the lifestyle component. And while it's an audio only podcasts, I'm pretty sure he was at least at the point of if not already shedding a tear. Getting to that point. It was a really deep emotional conversation about the other side of this business that most people don't really see. They say Oh, Eddie Hamilton, dude, he's worked on some amazing movies, and he's done Mission Impossible, and he's working on Top Gun. That's gonna be amazing. I totally want to do that someday. And then people build an entire career path, thinking How amazing would it be to be Eddie Hamilton. So what we're going to talk about today is what it really means to be Eddie Hamilton. Okay, so raw, uncensored, look at you get to the point in your career where somebody like you is, what does that really mean? Because obviously, you're working on the best stuff that our industry creates, and I'm sure there are plenty of moments where it's like, oh my God, I am cutting Tom Cruise and Top Gun. And by the way, he's coming to the edit suite later. That's amazing. Yes. But there's also the lifestyle component. And I feel this is the component that so few people actually do deeper research into sitting down and having lunch with people to understand if this is really what I want to do. Now, what does it look like when I'm on the red carpet? Or I win the awards? What does it look like the other 80 hours a week for the 18 months leading up to that moment? Absolutely. Yeah. So I just kind of want to have a candid unfiltered look at what is life look like at the top, so to speak as other people look at it, because we had kind of that that Frank candid conversation during dinner. And I just kept thinking to myself, Man, there are so many people that need to hear this, not because I'm trying to scare them away. I just think in order to make a more honest decision about what's really fulfilling to me, and what am I willing to sacrifice to get to the top? Most people don't even really understand what that looks like. So I think I think where I want to start. For anybody that doesn't know you and I did an entire podcast, I think it was a couple of years ago now. And we talked in depth about your story where you started talking about whether or not you should or shouldn't go to film school. So I don't want people to feel like they have to listen to all of that before they can listen to this and jump right in. So maybe just kind of give us like the the two minute version of how you got to where you are. And then I want to dig a lot deeper into the lifestyle stuff.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, absolutely. So I am one of these editors are one of these people who I was never really an assistant editor. So I didn't choose that path, mainly because I started out in TV as a runner, you know, getting lunches and stuff and worked my way up to being an editor on sports television programs, using one of the very early online Avid Media composers. But my heart was always my dream was always, you know, long form storytelling and movies. And I'd grown up being obsessed with movies, watching movies, reading books about making movies, listening to movie soundtracks, all of which is stuff which I all the knowledge of that is stuff I use every single day. Today, still, so none of it really feels like wasted time to me. And this is from the age of about seven that I became focused on working in the film industry somehow. And then about the age of 17. I, I kind of got the editing bug. And yeah, I failed to get into film school, because there were very few film schools in the UK back in the early 90s When I was applying, and then got a job as a runner in a post production facility and worked my way up there over a couple of years. And then did basically struck out on my own and was my own assistant on about nine very low budget movies that I worked on. And various bits of, you know, TV shows and documentaries and promos and corporate videos and all kinds of things that I did for a few years. And then slowly, I met other filmmakers who had a bit more money to make their features. And what I used to do is work for a couple of days a week editing promos for the Paramount comedy channel and night working the rest of the time, sort of five days a week for free. My big break probably was in 2001 When I first worked with Matthew Vaughn on a film called Mean machine, which was a fairly, which was which was a reasonably sized budget was that 6 million pound film had Vinnie Jones playing football in prison and Jason Statham was in it. And then that that started a relationship with Matthew which led to Kick Ass and X Men First Class, and both Kingsman movies. And so that was really where my career kind of got going. You know, because Matthew is a, an outstandingly brilliant producer and director and writer. And he he sets his sights very high for the films that he makes. And there aren't that many people like that in London. And so when when you've got the chance to build a relationship with somebody who has that kind of international clout to you, you really treasure that so I did work very, very hard for Matthew over a number of years and, and then the next after I did Kingsman, I got a call to work on Mission Impossible Rogue Nation. And I'm I was I'm local to London and the film was being post produced completely in London. So it made sense, I think for paramount to look for London based editors. And it was a gigantic project and I but I got along very well with the director Chris McQuarrie, and that led me on to working with him on Mission Impossible Fallout, and then being asked to work on top gun but you're looking at a book out. I'm trying to think about 23 years from my very first low budget feature to where I am now. So it was that length of time. And you know, very hard work. Throughout that time. I was my own assistant for about the first 10 movies that I cut. And then the as the budget increased, I was able to have one assistant and then two assistants and, and on top gun, I think I've got seven assistants because it's a very if you include music, editorial and visual effects, editorial and stuff, because it's a it's a gigantic project. So that's the kind of potted history of where I ended up where I am today.

Zack Arnold

Well, this is something that I talked about, probably at length in our previous episode. And to be honest, it's been long enough that I'm not even sure whether I mentioned this or not, but It's eerie. How similar our stories are. Because I too grew up being obsessed with film soundtracks and film scores. And, you know, when I was a kid in high school, everybody's listening to pop music. I'm listening to like James Horner CDs. And my kids are like, Who the hell is James Horner, but you don't know who James Horner, the composer of Field of Dreams is like, I was such a nerd, oh my god. But that was, you know, saying like you said, to this day, I go back to my library or CDs that I built when I was in high school, and I still use that stuff as temp score. So definitely not wasted time. And I too spent years being my own assistant editor. So when people look at, like a resume or IMDb, they say you are never an assistant. I'm like, well, technically I have editor credits. But you'll notice that I was also my own assistant not credited. So I've been through the wringer and you've been through the wringer as well. And then of course, you just kind of quote unquote, became an overnight success when you're the Mission Impossible editor, or even the kick ass editor, but obviously took years and years and years to get there. But what I really want to understand when people say, I can't imagine what a dream it would be to edit Mission Impossible or just even imagine editing the sequel, The Top Gun, I want to give a picture of what that actually looks like talking about what is your family life look like the amount of time that you spend on a show are you traveling, like right now you're in LA, but you don't live in LA. So I just I want people to understand what what it truly looks like both The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly.

Eddie Hamilton

I'll set the scene, I'll tell you how it works in London. And then I'll transition to how it was in LA. But for example, on a film like Mission Impossible Fallout, the day to day during the filming, which is, you know, probably eight months of time, I get up at 6am and I get in a car at 20 past six, the studio were very kind enough to provide me with a with a driver to drive me to the studio in the morning and back home in the evening takes about an hour or an hour and a half depending on traffic. And so 20 past six I get in the car, I get my I have dailies on my laptop from the day before which I'm reviewing in the car on the way to the studio, if I just need to reply to emails or if I need some kind of quiet introspection, or just time to think then that's also a very good time to do that. Because I don't have to worry about the the traffic or the you know, keeping my eye on the road, it makes an enormous difference to to how you arrive at work ready to tackle the creative challenges of the day. So I get to the studio around 20 past half past seven, I copy my bin that I've been working on on my laptop over to the main Media Composer project. And then I work all day at the studio, we take you know, an hour for lunch, sometimes less, but I do you know we always all the whole crew leave the cutting room and we walk we take a little walk around the block or we go to the canteen at leaves in studios and eat there and the guys were playing they got they really got into this card game called monopoly deal. So every lunchtime The whole crew would sit around playing Monopoly deal. And the other thing is that there are other productions being being made at the studio so you would bump into the same at the time we were doing Fallout they were doing I think Justice League was happening. The kid Who Would Be King, Fantastic Beasts, they were all being made there and so we were we you could bump into other editors and have a chit chat about how their projects are going and stuff. Then I'd be just working all day and then normally leave around 830 at night and then drive home for an hour and sometimes work on my laptop for an hour on the way home get home around 930 Really and then you know crash into bed at like an hour later at half past 10 Try and make sure I a lot like a good half an hour to communicate, you know directly and personally and intimately with my wife Charlotte. So we really feel like we've communicated you know, I don't I don't have a TV in the bedroom and I really do You know, I try not try to leave my phone downstairs. So I really try and make sure that I communicate properly with her before we go to sleep. So I find out what time to her, you know, I've got two young daughters find out what's happened in their lives. And then it all starts again at six o'clock in the next morning, you know. And then, so if they take a break, sometimes during those those big films, they will actually stand the crew down for a week or two weeks to prep for some big event or stunt or location work. And then quite often, I'll go to Chris McCarthy's house and work on a you know, we have a large hard drive with all the media on it, and the project which is backed up every single day. So at a moment's notice, I can go to Chris's house, and work. And he just has an iMac there with a thunderbolt display. So I plug in the drive, and we work quietly in his office. And we get a lot done there. But again, you know, I get there, I usually get to his house around 9am, I leave normally around seven. And again, we break for lunch. But that's the kind of hours and then sometimes I would go on location. So I went to New Zealand where they filmed the third act of Mission Impossible fallout. And I was working in a house that the production had rented. I had an assistant with me. But you know, my family came out for a few weeks, I was there for about six weeks, my family came out for about three of those weeks to visit and enjoy the sights of Queenstown. It was winter there because it was summer in the UK and it was freezing cold. But you know, the scenery is spectacular, as you can see in the film. And they were filming mostly the helicopter sequence. And there was a digital lab setup in the same house that I was working so we could get the dailies and I could start looking at hours and hours of footage straightaway and start building selects, and little mini cuts and stuff. So that's that's kind of how it works. Now, the biggest thing to remember about a film of that scale is that the entire post production of the movie has to go through your fingertips, you know, one way or another. And

Unknown Speaker

that is a lot of big responsibility which can overwhelm you if you feel like you're falling behind. You know, one of the most important things is being able to keep up to, to camera on these big films. So you can you watch the dailies, and you can advise the production on what they're missing or what they may need to pick up. And look for basic things like you know, focus problems, you know, Mission Impossible shot on on 35 mil anamorphic. So you can't really tell focus on the video tack, really. So you have to look at the dailies that come through. And quite often that will mean sending the crew back to a location to refilm shots if they haven't turned out well. So so it's an enormous responsibility. But Chris McQuarrie is a terrific writer, director. And he is exceptionally good at directing the edit of a film and collaborating closely on the Edit. And I prepare thoroughly all the dailies so that it's it's very easy for me to find stuff. And review multiple options for every line of dialogue. And we can make progress through the Edit very quickly. And show it to Tom Cruise who has final cut on Mission Impossible movies and get his input and and then figure out how to evolve the movie and what additional lines of dialogue we may need to pick up in ADR or new scenes we might need to film or you know little pickups that we might need to film whatever. So that's that's the day to day now on mission. It's some days I do six day weeks, and the sick days sometimes is at home where I have, you know a system is set up at home and I'll plug in the drive in our work home. And that's normally so that if they're filming five days a week, its main unit only on mission which is also great. So there isn't tons of second unit footage coming in alongside the main unit because Chris McQuarrie likes to direct everything. And so so it's a manageable amount. But usually the sixth day is spent kind of catching up on anything that I may have skimmed through and then making sure that I do a thorough job. So by Monday morning, I'm sort of caught up with everything and I've got everything assembled and ready to work with Chris should he want to. But the post production after we finished filming is extraordinarily intense, you know, very long days, visual effects reviews, music reviews, sound effects, reviews, editorial reviews, test screenings, we traveled to different places to test screened the film and you know, we have a release date coming up. So there's marketing to deal with and trailers and all this kind of stuff. So there's a lot going on and you have to remain calm at all times. And almost any plan that gets made It changes hourly. So it's very important that you can be, you can kind of surf the waves as it were. And, and, and my whole team understands that, you know, so they are all very flexible and understand that, you know, things can change. And we'll have to change priorities immediately and, you know, work on something different or, you know, suddenly the screening that we had at 7pm is now 5pm. And we just need to crank through everything a little bit faster, whatever it is. And then, after doing two Mission Impossible movies, I got a call about working on top gun. And what that entailed was moving to Los Angeles for a year or maybe longer. And I initially wasn't sure about that, you know, I have kids who are in school in London, but I talked to my wife at length. And she said, No, you know what, this is an amazing opportunity. The kids will have an incredible year in Los Angeles, they will go to school, they will make friends, they will see all the incredible stuff that California has to offer. Let's do it, let's make it an adventure. And let's do it. And so, you know, I moved my whole family to Los Angeles in August last year, so August 2018. And it's now been nearly a year, you know, as I speak to you, it's the beginning of August 2019. And so, so it's been a year. So, you know, we were working in Santa Monica. So we rented a house about 15 minutes cycle ride from the cutting room. So every morning I can cycle to work, I normally get there about 745. And I, you know, I start work crank through till about 8pm 8:30pm Sundays. And initially on top gun again, I was doing six day weeks. But after about seven months of that, I found that I was getting quite burnt out. And also the quantity of footage was was really extraordinarily high on that film. Because it's very difficult to film.

Unknown Speaker

Everything, film, aerial sequences, for real, it's a whole order of magnitude more complicated than the last top gun, you know, from 1986. And so there's a lot of lot of cameras and a lot of footage. And in about February, I found myself being quite overwhelmed. And so I said to the producers in the studio, listen, I think I think I'm going to fail. If I carry on trying to stay on top of this, I'm going to fail, and I'm gonna let you down and not do my job properly. So, you know, I waved the flag and I said, I'm going to need we're going to need help to get through all this footage. And so please Can Can I Can we get someone else to help and they totally understood. And they, they could see how complicated the project was becoming. And so they got another editor to help me. And that was that was the time where I was asking for help from other editors and asking for advice and trying to figure out what the solution was. Because you know what it's like you're you you have a lot of pride in what you do. And I've done, you know, many films on my own. But this, this has, you know, more than double the footage of Mission Impossible fallout. And that was a very demanding movie. And so just simply being able to review all the dailies becomes extremely challenging you know Zack

Zack Arnold

yes, no, I definitely think that this is really important insight for people. And I'm sure there are a lot of people that say, Are you kidding, I would do anything, including work those kinds of hours. But I think that one of the challenges that comes with this industry in the way that we work specifically in our niche and our little dark rooms by ourselves. And I've heard this over and over and over for the last five plus years that I've been doing this now, where people come to me and they say, I thought I was the only one. But then as soon as I started to share my story about burnout and depression and just not being able to deal with the day to day people say, Oh, I thought it was just me. And what I'm learning the more people I talk to and the more people that come out of the woodwork from all over the world. By the way, this is not people in Los Angeles, I get emails from people on six continents, still no editors reaching out from Antarctica. So I'm gonna have to get a better marketing team. But outside of that I hear from people all over the world. And it's the same story. And I've essentially come to the conclusion. It's all of us. Yeah, I don't think I've ever talked to an editor that does what we do that I said, yeah, no, I've pretty much got my health under control and I feel good all the time and I've got good energy and ever feel overwhelmed at work really normal hours. I've never heard that once in five years.

Eddie Hamilton

Yeah, I think it's it's mostly because we we love what we do. We can't quite believe we're being paid to do it. And we are all perfectionist, and we really want to do good work. Or I am certainly and I take great pride in being thorough and, and being able to talk to the studio or talk to the director or talk to the star or the producer and say, what you're seeing is the best stuff. I've been through it all. And these are the best shots. And I have all the shots that I rejected in a timeline over here, and we can review it, I'd be delighted to review it and double check that, you know, I have I have made the correct choices. But certainly for films where the visual effects count is high, it's very important on Mission Impossible, for example, to get visual effects shots into the pipeline, as as quickly as possible, so that they can, and you have to have confidence that what you're turning into the visual effects department is right. You know, it's there's a lot riding on it, you know, there's hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of dollars riding on these decisions that you're making, you want to put in the hours to make sure that you are professionally proud of your work, you know, and you, I take the job of editing very seriously. And I understand that the studio is investing over $100 million in this production. And it's all coming through your fingertips. And there are days where I go into work, and I'm facing some creative challenge. And I'm thinking, I really don't know how I'm gonna get through this, I have the experience to know that probably I will figure it out eventually, if I just keep going. And the main thing I have to tell myself is, you know, just put shots on the timeline. in any order, if you don't know what you're doing, just stick just put shots on the timeline and start to build something. Because even if you have two or three shots, four shots, five shots, when you start to watch them back, the kind of instinctive side of your editorial personality will immediately start to make judgments on the rhythm and the pace and the shot composition. And you'll start to feel okay, there's enough there's, I can see a glimmer of a way through this creative problem. But then you just got to grind through it for the rest of the day and try and build something and then, you know, we all know, it's a lot easier to recap something than it is to start with an empty timeline. And it's the same with writing, you know, you hear on writers podcast, you hear about writers talking about their vomit draft of a screenplay, just so they've got something on the timeline. And for me, when I'm really faced with trying to solve some problem, or you're cutting a montage where there's just tons of footage thrown at you, and you have to really create a story and create a pace and create it, you know, find some music that works and, and just get a version one down for the producers and the director to to react to. The thing is on a film like Top Gun, the sequences are so complicated, and you're looking at hours and hours and hours of footage to find two or three seconds, have really great footage that you think may make it into the two hour movie, that it can take weeks to build a sequence, you know, which is six or eight minutes long. And if you work it out, it's sometimes only 10 or 20 seconds a day that you're of stuff, which may end up in the finished movie. And that can be you know, there are days where I'm going, I can't believe I'm not being able to go through this quicker. You there's no shortcut, you just have to go through all the footage and simmer it down to the best stuff, you know, and it can be very challenging. And also, it's a proper marathon something like this, you know, which is why, you know, in February when I was when I felt myself burning out, I thought no, I've got to come down to five day weeks, I need help.

Unknown Speaker

I need another editor to help me get through this. And I rely on my my wife and my kids in the evenings to relax me and to allow me to change the channel on you know, on what's going in front of my eyes. And the way that I'm communicating with people and just hearing them talk about their day just allows me to mentally breathe from the intense creative demands that you know that you've just been putting on yourself for 12 hours. And you know, I can go late like there are some days where we do 14 hours. There are some days where we do 16 hours if we really have to, but that that takes a toll on you for the rest of the week. You know. So you really have to be quite strict about you know, working intensely and then Taking a break. And I love the fact that I can that I cycle to work. And I have a standing desk, although I do sit down some of the day, but you know, I stand for a lot of it as well. And I go outside and I take little breaks and I, you know, allow myself time to think about, you know, the next 10 seconds of the sequence that I'm working on, or whatever it is, yeah, it's crucially important and, and to be honest, that a lot of that does come down to listening to your podcasts and taking a good, long, hard look at my life, you know, a few years ago, and reprioritizing certain things, because I knew that, you know, my marriage would not survive, and I wouldn't be a good father to my children. And, you know, I needed to, yeah, radically reprioritize things, you know, and so that's what I did,

Zack Arnold

Well, that definitely put a smile on my face. So I very much appreciate that. That is, of course, me trying to make my little tiny mark on the world. And even if my goal at one point in my life was to edit the next top gun, at least now I know that I'm, you know, keeping the family of the latest Top Gun editor a little bit happier and healthier. So that makes me feel better. That's great. But the what I want to talk a little bit more about is going back to kind of the this period where you had spent your whole career being the guy, and you were doing all this stuff on your own. And then you realized, I can't really do this on my own. And that feeling of overwhelm, because we've all had that before. And like, I've never worked in anything even close to the scope of view. But the best example I can give is that I was tasked to edit an opening montage for the season premiere of Burn Notice. And they hadn't shot anything. And they said, You know what we want to do this opening montage this kind of like, here's what's been going on for the last six months. Can you cut it? I'm like, Yeah, that sounds like fun when you guys gonna shoot it. But we're not shooting anything. You need to build it from old dailies from old seasons that we didn't use. That was like, Oh, my God. And of course, on a TV schedule. The expectation was, what can we see something tomorrow? And I'm like, No, this is going to take some time. And I worked on it for about 90 hours over the course of the next week. And it was a 92nd Montage. So I was essentially cutting a second per hour. And everybody loved it. But the amount of pressure every single day the network called again, where do they get to see a cut? I'm like, guys, let me show you what I've done in the last two days. I hit play, and they're like, oh my god, that's amazing. Can we watch the rest of it? No, because it doesn't exist yet. That's why I need time. So I just kept kind of like spoon feeding them little pieces. So they understood how intricate it was. But the amount of pressure that that put on me was immeasurable. It's like, Oh, my God, this entire production, this multimillion dollar successful cable series is on hold, waiting for me to solve the most creatively challenging sequence the show has ever had. And I remember it racking me for like two weeks afterwards. So going back to what you said about this idea of well, sometimes I'll work 16 hours. I think what so many people miss is they do the math. And they say, Well, an extra two hours a day or three hours a day won't hurt. But I'm sure you can speak to the fact that you're basically investing four hours of your time. So somebody can take the next 20 away from you. The math doesn't add up. And it doesn't make sense. But we feel like we're supposed to be sprinting the whole marathon instead of running in a marathon runners pace. And that's where we all end up being burned out and depressed and hating our jobs and saying, I gotta figure out something else to do, because I can't do this anymore. I hear that all the time.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. And I, I haven't really had a break. I mean, I have two weeks off at Christmas. No, I didn't, I had one week off at Christmas. This year, I had two weeks off the year before. And in America, obviously they have union holidays, which I've taken off, but that is it. And there are days where I feel where I walk out at, say 11am and I've been working for say two or three hours. And I just think I would give anything to go and sit on a beach for two weeks and allow my brain time to just unplug and not looking at a screen and, you know, allow my creativity to, to top itself up because it's running on empty, you know, and the way that I try and the way that I keep try and keep my creativity going now is I run on a Saturday morning. So the first thing I do on Saturdays usually get up make my wife a cup of tea say hi to the kids or ask if they want to come for a run. Usually they're kind of watching Netflix and they're like Daddy, good luck. You go for a run and we'll see you when you get back. But I take that time on my own to kind of, you know, stretch my body a bit and do do a different exercise to the rest of the week. And then it's very important to me personally, that I watch, you know that one movie, the weekend, maybe one movie during the week, try and go to a theater and watch a movie. And I have a list of about 70 classic films from the last century of cinema, which I've yet to see. And when you are around people like Chris McQuarrie, he really has watched a lot of movies, I mean, way more than I have. And he will constantly bring up classic, you know, he'll say, Hey, have you seen that John Frankenheimer movie, the train from 1956, you've got to see that it's a perfect heist movie. I'm like, holy smokes, I have never seen that, you know, and I got to watch it. And then he'll start talking about various Hitchcock movies that he's seen that I haven't. And I'm thinking, you know, what, any self respecting film editor should have at least watched all the Hitchcock movies, you know. And so, that's one way I top up my creativity. But it's so important that, you know, on a daily basis, I find myself, you know, taking time in the evenings to shut my eyes and meditate and breathe, and just clear my head. You know, I don't read the news in the evenings. Because the news for me, good news, doesn't sell newspapers or doesn't generate clicks, you know, it's, it's bad news that generates that and news, which is designed to cause you stress and anxiety. And I find that very unhelpful, to getting restful sleep, Facebook and Twitter are just, well, Twitter especially is very toxic 99.9% of it I find is toxic. And Facebook is fine, just to look at a few photos that friends have posted, but I don't go down Facebook, rabbit holes, either. I've got a Kindle, so that I can read. And the good thing about a Kindle is that it's lit. So if I wake up in the night, and I want to read I won't make well wake my wife up by putting the light on and things like that. But it helps me go back off to sleep. Sleep is something which is incredibly important. You know, when in February, when I was really struggling, I would have fever dreams of close ups of the actors flying in their FA teen planes set and I would I would wake up and I would just all I would see is close ups of these actors in my in my, in my head. And that would be and I would wake up at three o'clock in the morning sometimes and just lie there for three hours, just seeing dailies and like, hundreds of hours of footage and thinking, how am I? How am I ever going to? Where do I start with this, you know, back then I was working on naval bases, they were filming aerial sequences, and the days were so packed, that I would have time to watch the dailies and break it down. But I wouldn't have time to actually cut anything. And so every day that went past, I was watching footage and advising the director on on if we had, you know the right shots, and then but every day we'd go past and the stuff wouldn't be being cut because I was overwhelmed with just getting through the footage on a daily basis, if

Unknown Speaker

you see what I mean. So, you know, I got my laptop out on a Saturday, and we were staying in a hotel and I plugged in the drive. And I was looking at the screen and I was thinking right, I've got to start cutting some of this stuff. So I feel like I'm making progress, you know, and I'm doing my job. And I remember and this is the days there were exceptionally long, like we would be meeting in the hotel lobby at half past five in the morning, getting to the, to the area to the Naval Base, and I wouldn't be leaving the base until about half past nine in the evening. And then getting to bed about half 1011 and then getting up again at five, you know, so it was it was very, very long days indeed on location. Which again, if if you end up going on location that that's what most of the crew are doing most of the time those kinds of hours. So it's no different for anyone else. And but I the weekend came and I thought right I've got to start doing something and I I looked at the laptop screen for about 45 minutes. And I couldn't start because my mind was going right do something creative and my body was going no you're exhausted you this is not healthy, you have to stop. And you you this is your just fate you're gonna fail because there is so much to do. And you cannot do this on your own. It's, it is just impossible to stay on top of this amount of footage coming in on a daily basis. You know, you know, I wasn't and I wasn't sleeping very well because I was so quick was so worried about the fact that I was you know, falling behind and so it was like a vicious circle you know? And my my mind would be my mind would be hyperactive, you know, I'd be, I'd be thinking of all the dailies and all the the editorial challenges and everything that I needed to do. And I found it very hard to kind of turn my brain off, you know, from thinking about this. And so I really had to dig deep and like force myself to stay calm and breathe and try and sleep better and, you know, find a way through which I eventually did. But it was tough. I have to be honest, it was really tough.

Zack Arnold

Well, I can only imagine being in that kind of a position where you're sitting in front of a laptop, your brain is literally turned off. And it says, Nope, no more thinking for me, don't ask me to make one more single decision. And then the next thought is, how can I possibly go to Christopher McQuarrie? Or Tom Cruise? And say, I can't and I need help? So what was what was the moment like? What was the signal or the sign where you're like, it doesn't matter how painful this conversation is just for the sake of my own life? Or my family? I have to be willing to broach the subject. Was there a moment? Or was it just kind of gradual? Or like how did all that manifest itself where that turn how

Unknown Speaker

Here's the thing, I could see this coming down the tracks, right. And I remember saying to the producers on the film, I'm probably going to need help at some point because I, it may be impossible for me to stay on top of all this material. And they said, Sure, sure. Sure. You know, when you need help, let us know. And we will get you help, you know, but you're doing a great job, and everything's going fine so far. You know, so I had kind of already waved a bit of a flag, if you know what I mean. And there was there was a day, a particularly heavy day of dailies, where there were a lot of cameras running. And I just thought, you know, I don't even think I can watch all this footage. You know, before the next load of footage comes in, you know what I mean? We sometimes we feel like that it's like, there's so much that we, it's going to be a struggle to get through it. And so at that point, I remember saying, guys that I had one person can't do this anymore. And it's my job to to ask for help and tell you that, you know, this is becoming very overwhelming. And I'm really struggling, you know, I'm not sleeping very well. And I'm really worried that I'm gonna let you down. And so please, can I have help? And they said, absolutely no problem. Hang in there. And we'll get someone else to join, join the production. And it'll be fine that you know, don't quit, don't don't stress out. It's like take, take the time you need at the weekend to unplug and relax, and really allow your batteries to recharge, don't feel like you're you have to cut stuff, you know, do just five day weeks. And you know, it'll be we'll get through it. And we did and so that after about six weeks or so, the moment that someone else came on the production, effectively, my workload halved, and it became manageable again. And I'm eternally grateful for that help. And, you know, after about six weeks of slowly, kind of figuring out, you know, how to get back into a better sleep pattern, I found myself sleeping through the night again, and then my, my creative energy was restored. And I was able to do the job and kind of get over that stretch. But it is, as I said, it is your duty as a professional, helping a director and a producer make their film that you tell them when it becomes, you know, impossible for you to do the job on your own.

Zack Arnold

Well, at the end of the day, the project is bigger than you. And I think that a lot of times because of the responsibility. And it's funny that you kind of described how everything comes through your fingertips. Whenever I explain or do speeches to people about what I do that are not in the industry. They're like, Oh, what does the editor even do? Like you cut out the bad parts? Like that's kind of our joke, right? Well, when I explain it to other people in other industries, I say we all know what a film set looks like. So imagine you're on the film set of Mission Impossible. And I think I've actually used that example before. You've got Tom Cruise on set crew of 200 people, they're spending hundreds of millions of dollars, they spent months preparing, they shoot everything. They put it all on one hard drive that you can hold in one hand and they hand it all to one person. Yeah, the editor is that person. That's what we do. And people their eyes just go wide and like, Oh my God, that's really what it's like and like, Yes, that's what it like. And it's it's a tremendous amount of responsibility and pressure. And I can't even imagine how hard it must have been to not only say this is a lot to keep up the camera, but I can't even keep up to watching camera. Yeah, I mean, that's an insane amount of material. From the time that they brought somebody on is it now just been a two editor system since then, or was it kind of like just to fill the gap and you're now back? No, no, it's better

Unknown Speaker

No, it's two, it has been two since, you know, since that time and, and has continued to be essential. Yeah, I mean, it's essential that there's two people working on it, because we can get twice as much done, you know, so we've kind of cut the film in half. And kind of kind of I mean, we've, we've, we've split up the sequences, if you imagine so, so we've each got like half of the film, it's not like I've got the, you know, someone's got the first half, someone's got the second half, there's kind of like, we were kind of working on different sequences, and then kind of, you know, joining them up, and then we'll, we'll collaborate on each other's stuff. And I value that enormously, actually having a thought partner with another editor, who you can bounce ideas off and kind of review sequences with and get objective feedback is incredibly helpful. You know, working on a project, which has an enormous amount of footage way away, or you spend so long in the weeds with something with a sequence weeks and weeks and weeks to generate just minutes of the edited material. So you really have no objectivity, you know, you your, your years of experience and skill and gut reactions. And all that stuff is, is telling you that what you're doing is in theory, correct. But until you actually sit down and watch it with someone else, you really don't know for sure. And so, I found that incredibly helpful to have, as well as the director, the director is quite in the weeds with it as well, sometimes it's because they've been, you know, storyboarding it and prepping in filming it and, you know, living through all the footage on the set. And so, so it's really helpful to have that extra objectivity, which can come from producers and writers, and etc. But also to get it from editors is incredibly valued that, you know, to have that as part of the brain trust on the film. You know, it's great.

Zack Arnold

And that's something that I've taken for granted. Being in television so long, is that I realized I'm always surrounded by other editors working on other episodes, I have the opportunity to take a break once a week, or once every two weeks, depending on the schedule, have lunch and actually watch a cut of their show and say, Oh, even though this is a different episode with different dailies, they use this music in this way, or they approach their montage this way. And that really kind of feels your creativity would Yeah, but But I remember back to the days of when I was doing independent features, and it was me, it's just like you're staring at a blank wall all day long thinking, I have no idea of what I'm doing is working at all. And I can't even imagine being on the same thing for 12 to 18 months, and having to recode something for the 12th time and make it fresh. So

Eddie Hamilton

right? You're absolutely right. Yeah,

Zack Arnold

kind of the the final big question that I have. And this is not an easy one to answer. And I think that the it's going to be easy for somebody listening that might be in reality television, or they might be an assistant or they might be doing TV like I am or indie features, whatever it is. When I asked this question, the answer they come up with is Well, it's obvious, right? So if I asked you, is it really all worth it? People would say, Well, I'm sure you're getting paid a ton of money, and you're working with Tom Cruise. And you're working on these huge tentpole films and you've quote unquote, made it. But it is the price that we have to pay for doing this creative work really worth it. Because I've talked to people like Roger Barton, where he really broke down talking about his divorce because of him working such long hours. And I've heard other conversations of people saying, well, my choices were, I can either watch my children grow up, or I can be at their high school graduation thinking what an amazing college tuition fund they have. And I don't want to be in a position where I want to make those decisions. And I've made the choice. To me, it's not worth it to go to that level. Because I really want to be present for my kids and I want to grow up with them. And I want to be able to do other things and do the podcast. So I just decided that's no longer the path that's for me. But is it really worth it?

Eddie Hamilton

There are days where I am so exhausted and or there are grades where I'm where I'm struggling creatively, where I wish I could take a break, but the commitments the professional commitments that you have to the film mean that it's impossible to take a break unless literally you you were hospitalized, you know.

Unknown Speaker

And, you know, professionally you you have to keep going and but there are days you know where I wish I could take a break and so there's some days I go, you know, I'm not sure this is worth it. Not very many days, I would say two or three days a year maybe I would feel like that where I go into work and I'm thinking I just wish I could turn left and go to the beach. You know I do have a treat my wife with enormous respect and love And I'm incredibly grateful to her for her love and support daily, I never take it for granted how much work she does to create a family home for our children and how much she does, you know, cooking food for them and helping them with their homework and doing the laundry and nourishing them with various extracurricular activities, which I'm not there for most of the time, there are some crucial things that I just will not miss, you know, school plays and sporting events and things like that were totally worth, you know, arriving at work a few hours late or leaving work a few hours early. And everyone understands that is a thing that is important. And I insist that anyone on my team, attend birthdays, or graduations or important ceremonies or ballet recitals or whatever, they almost don't even have to ask me for permission to go, I just say to them, if you have something important that you need to do for your family or for your children, just tell me it's a thing and go and I will not, I will absolutely support that. Because you know, it is a marathon these movies are you're committed for a year or a year and a half, and everyone has to have a life outside. Everybody does. And one of the things I tell my team is like we are all in this together, there are seven or eight of us working on this film in the cutting room. And we all need to be able to do everybody else's jobs at a pinch. Because if if someone needs to go to the dentist, go to the doctor or watch their kids sports game, or do whatever they need to do or go and visit their dad or whatever it is, they they must, I support that and everyone else will cover for them. Because we are all going to need those times where it's important to kind of attend something like that. The other thing which might be of interest to people is a few years ago, I did this, I took a week off when I was in prep on Kingsman The Golden Circle, I said to the producers, I want to I want to take a week off and do a personal development course called The Hoffman process, which you can Google it and it's it's a week long residential course where you go and spend seven days in the company of about 20 strangers and three qualified Counselors, and Therapists and you hand in all your devices and you take a good, long, hard look at your life. And you deal with all the the baggage that is stopping you leading the life that you want to lead. And for me, I had a severe work life imbalance where I was working too hard. And so what that allowed me to do, and let's be honest, very few of us will give ourselves one week of time to focus on our own personal development, because there are always 101 Other things to do. Certainly, if you have family, that's, that's, you know, you put yourself last constantly. But it's the greatest gift that you can give yourself and your family. If you give yourself a week to look at your life, and you go, these are the things I'm unhappy with. And this is how I want to change and improve. And so actually, interestingly, my wife did it before me, she was given this as a birthday present by a very good friend of hers who had also done this experience for a week. And he came out of that with such a sense of calm, and, and focus and peace with that I was very envious of and so I booked myself to go on it. And I spoke to the producers on Kingsman, and I said I this was during the prep it wasn't during filming, I said I'm going to take a week off to do this. And they said Sure, sure. Good idea. And, and I it really allowed me to reprioritize my life in an incredibly healthy way. And I think my wife and children saw a distinct change in my work life balance after that, which was very healthy, you know? And so if anyone is in a position where they feel like they want to improve, you know, change their life for the better and they're not quite sure. The tools to do that. If you Google the Hoffman process, it's it happens they do these week long courses throughout the year, you know, four or five times a year. All you know In California, and in Europe and all over in Australia, and on most continents, and I would highly recommend it. It is a truly life changing week, which is not that cheap, but it is incredibly valuable. And the way in which your life dramatically improves is was totally worth it in my mind.

Zack Arnold

when it comes to this idea of personal development, the response that I think most people give is, well, I don't have time for personal development, I have too many things that I need to worry about too many obligations. But if we really think about personal development as an investment, it's no different than saying, Well, I don't have $1,000 to put in the bank. But if I take it out of the bank A year later, and they give me 3000, in return, as long as I'm patient, and I'm willing to wait, that is a really good investment. And that's the same way that I see personal development and also health. Oh, my word. Yes, no. So it's like for me to quit the work that I'm doing on a Monday at 4pm and drive for an hour and traffic, so I can do a plyometrics cardio workout in Tony Horton's back yard makes absolutely no sense. From a time management perspective. It's it's four and a half hours between the prep all the driving and the workout, I'm giving away half a day, per week. And that doesn't make sense when I want to get things done. But the kind of the nitrous boost that it gives me in creativity for the rest of the week, more than makes up for those four hours, because I'm so much more balanced, so much more creative, it's easier for me to sleep, I feel better, I'm losing weight. So I think that's the key piece that most people miss. But the other thing that I think is so important, going back to this conversation about birthdays, or performances, or whatever it is, we always kind of feel like, well, if the time is available, that's something that I'm going to be able to go to, but we're really busy, or we have a deadline, or I feel like I'm gonna get fired if I don't, you know, stick around for whatever it is. And I think one of the biggest components that people miss when they're trying to build this path to a more fulfilling career is that they're always trying to sell themselves on their creative abilities. But they don't expect that the person that they're working with needs to sell them on the lifestyle as well. So when I interview people, I'm interviewing them, like, if so if I'm up for a job, I interview them. And I want to understand what are your expectations? So if I know that I'm working with a show runner, or show runners that don't have any kids, it's going to be harder for me to say, Hey, can I come in at noon today, because I have a performance to go to, if they do have kids, the responses just like yours that you don't even need to ask, just tell us that you're going to be there. I don't want to feel like I have to negotiate between editing a scene versus a once in a lifetime opportunity that my kids are going to be in therapy for 15 years later, because Daddy was never there. So it's really about understanding what are everybody else's expectations of you. Because at a certain point, and I've had this conversation with so many of my clients where they realize that all these expectations of people saying you can't go where you can't do this thing, or we're too busy. Number one, they're either making up those expectations, or number two, had they asked a couple of questions, they would have seen all of that coming, and they would have never taken the job in the first place. So it's doing this, this form of interviewing with other people and understanding the lifestyle expectations is just as important is all the tech and all the creative and all the storytelling too.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I agree with that. I feel like I certainly don't have a problem with saying to a director or producer, I'm going to go to see my kids tonight or whatever. Because they I think well, maybe maybe it's maybe it's me. But there it feels to me like there is there is an appreciation for mental health, which has grown in the last couple of years, perhaps, you know, and everyone understands that mental health is, or everyone appears to appreciate now more that mental health is as important as physical health for the well being of your team. You know, your relationship with your wife, or your partner and your kids is something which is crucial for your mental health. And if your relationship with your partner and your kids is suffering, your work will suffer because you will be distracted by feeling that you're letting people down in your life. You know, and I've certainly been there. And, you know, in my relationship over the I mean, I've been married for, you know, 15 years. And our relationship has had very tough times where the work commitments have really impacted things negatively at home, but in I have made a decision now to make sure that that doesn't happen, because it's too important to me. And as I said, it's important for my team as well, it's really important to me as the head of the editorial department on a film to make sure that I appreciate my team's mental health and their relationship with their family. And, you know, ultimately, it makes for a happier environment and a more productive environment, and everyone feels respected. And generally, when the deadline does come, that everyone will pull together and work harder to get through it, because they've been, you know, they're feeling valued. And they have been given a lot in return, you know. So I think it's incredibly important. Everything that you're saying Zack

Zack Arnold

And clearly, I would agree with everything we're saying about the importance of mental health and everything else that you just said. But there's one area that I want to slightly disagree, okay. And that is, I think, you're living in a world with the people you work with where it is valued, but I guarantee there other people that are listening, saying, you know, what mental health not valued where I am, because I hear those people reaching out to me all the time, the expectations that are put upon them, or the way that they're treated, is just inhumane, where they're basically an extension of their workstation, and we're going to push them until they drop, and then we're going to replace them with somebody else and push that person until they drop. So it is still very, very pervasive

Unknown Speaker

Is that is that in my position, as the head of department, you know, head of editorial on a movie, it is my job to, to look after my team's well being, and make sure that they are respected and that they do not get overworked, and to manage the resources properly. And to ask for additional resources, if it's impossible to do, to deliver very high quality work in the time that the producers are asking us to do it. And it's my job also to, to fight for those resources and to fight for my team, and speak to the producers and make sure they understand that what they're asking is not possible with the resources that we have, or it's going to result in much worse productivity later on, because everyone's exhausted. So I think people should feel confident to go to their editors or to their show runners and try and explain how their decisions are impacting the people who are helping them create their show or their their movie. But I personally feel a great responsibility for the welfare of my team. And if you are working for somebody who doesn't value that you should talk to them. And if they do not listen to you find another job, I think because life's too short, you know,

Zack Arnold

yeah, I agree with that. 100%. But there's so many people that they're like, Oh, well, that's easy for you to say find another job. But at the end of the day, it is there's work out there. And yes, it's a little bit tough.

Unknown Speaker

I understand that I do. I've been in that situation, it's very hard to find jobs sometimes. But, you know, if you are going to shorten your life effectively, that's what it comes down to. Because you are overworked and underappreciated, then you you should just you should aim higher. I think, you know, and eventually people will get the message that they need to they should be treating people better. Because I know, I know, what I'm talking about is sometimes not possible. But I know people have to pay the bills. And I've been there I've had many films drop through, you know, one after the other and I was looking at how am I going to pay the mortgage this month, or I'm really going to struggle maybe I have to sell my house or sell my apartment and move in with my sister because I can't afford you know, I've had such bad luck, a run of bad luck in in this freelance world that we all work in. So I totally understand anyone who's in that situation and I understand the desperation of needing to pay the bills and the worry that that causes. If you if you are if you are shortening your life and putting your your mental and physical health at risk or driving home tired, you know on the freeway or whatever it is, you know, ultimately, it is not worth it. Sometimes things happen in life which can and re set your priorities. You know, I had a situation recently where, you know, you hear a story of someone with young children who's got a diagnosis, a cancer diagnosis. And, you know, it's something like that hits you so hard, especially if it's a friend of yours, with children that you, you, you just take a step back and you look at your life, and you just think, Wait a second, you know, is this what simple important to me ultimately, you know? And so, I wouldn't wish that on anybody, of course, but it is. Sometimes you can be so caught up in the rat race that you you lose perspective on what is really important, you know, and we've all done it. That's all I'm saying.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And where I want to leave this conversation, it's because I'm being very conscious of the fact that we're talking about the importance of sleep and productivity, and it is getting late for both of us. It's way past my bedtime. I don't know about you. But where I want to leave the conversation is a brief story that I heard from somebody firsthand, this is not secondhand, I was having dinner with an editor, maybe three, four years ago, I will not name this person that will stay anonymous. I will not mention the movie. But they were working on something probably similar scope as you. And they said they got to the point where they were driving home one night, two or three in the morning. And they were thinking to themselves, what if I just yanked on the wheel, and I just turned it really hard. And I went into a ditch and I hit a wall or a telephone pole, not saying I want to be dead. But it would be pretty amazing to break both of my legs and not have to go to work anymore. That was the mindset of this person working on a movie that 10s of 1000s of people would kill to have that job. And my if anybody is in that headspace right now. And whatever project they're in, the question is, number one, do you deserve to be in that kind of an environment? And number two, if it were your spouse, or your mom, or your dad or your siblings, or your best friend and that position, you were standing outside of them? Would you allow them to be treated that way continually? And why are you allowing yourself to be in that position? Like, to me that just seems absurd? But like you said, you just get this tunnel vision you get sucked into the rat race? And this ego that says no, I have to get through this sometimes literally at the cost of your life.

Eddie Hamilton

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And there's, there's been a very small handful of times where something like that has gone through my head as well. You know, obviously, as a father of children, you, you know, those thoughts disappear very quickly from your head, because you want your kids to grow up with a father, obviously, but there are some days where you are so where your priorities are so warped, that you you start to contemplate with things like that, you know, so I totally understand where that guy's coming from I share I share, I do appreciate it. And it's it's pretty scary sometimes, you know, living the dream, be careful what you wish for. But, you know, I do remind myself there are you know, every day I remind myself, when I'm cycling to work, I go, you know, this is such an amazing opportunity. And I am being paid to do what I love to do. And I've worked very hard for this. And I'm excited to do it. Because I'm i It's so creatively fulfilling. And it's, it's like magic, you know, it's like literally magic every day some of the things that you can achieve by juxtaposing images and sound of music on a timeline. And, you know, ultimately, that's what keeps us all going and why we love what we do. And so, just to end on a positive note, I'd like to remind everybody that, you know, for me personally, it was just about a lot of hard work, and passion and focus and drive and determination to succeed. And not giving up. That's the other thing that's so important is, you know, but but but most people who are editors who are listening to this may share the sentiment of the fact that, you know, they have to do it, it's not even a choice. It's just something which you're so passionate about that you would do it even if you weren't being paid. You know, it's you love it so much. It's just something which fuels the creativity of your soul to such an extent that you can't imagine life without it, you know? And so that's how I feel most of the time. But there are the odd occasions where you sometimes lose sight of that because the pressures get to you. But, you know, like I said, most of the time, that's how I feel. And I count my blessings every day, you know, I genuinely do.

Zack Arnold

Well, I think that's the best answer that I could get to the question. Is it all worth? It's my personal feeling is that it's worth it. If you're doing it with the right people for the right reasons. And it feels fulfilling. Yes, there are crazy long hours and there are sacrifices. But if all of you feel like you're on the same boat together, you're fighting the same battle. And it's a matter of people understanding your needs. And yes, there are things that need to be sacrificed. But there are also sacrifices the movie makes for you. If you're saying this is fulfilling to me, then I think it's worth it. Agree. If you say to yourself, you know what, this just isn't fulfilling, and it's for the paycheck or it's for the credit, or it's for the chance of winning the Oscar or the Emmy or whatever it is. That's where the road to burnout just goes straight downhill. And it happens so fast. You hit the wall, you don't even know where the wall came from. So I feel like the secret ingredient is, is this fulfilling? And if it is, then I believe that it can be worth it. So

Unknown Speaker

I agree Zack. Thank you so much for this opportunity to talk to you. It's been great. It's been really great. And yeah, I wish you all the best. And I look forward to our next conversation whenever that is

Zack Arnold

Yes, I appreciate you taking the time as well. And I apologize if I took away some of your your sleep time and your mental recovery, but I'm hoping that it will be worth it and be fulfilling for both you and for all the people listening that it will help. So I very much appreciate your time this evening.

Eddie Hamilton

Yeah, thanks, everybody. All right. Bye bye.

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