Ep243: [CASE STUDY] Beyond NCIS: Abandoning Job Security (Without Burning a Bridge), Optimizing Unemployment, & Embracing Fear of the Unknown | with Luke Brown

Zack Arnold

I'm here today with Luke Brown and Luke Brown is a longtime editor and former assistant editor primarily in the network television space, you've got a myriad of credits on NCIS: Hawaii, NCIS: New Orleans, NCIS: Fargo Muskogee Springfield, and all of the above all of the many NCIS shows, there are other credits such as Once Upon a Time, Necessary Roughness, The Big C, in short, you've been in the TV world for a long time and many facets of post production. But most importantly, especially for the sake of today's conversation, you were also a highly valued member of the Optimizer community as both a student in my career development programs and even more importantly, as a fellow Spartan racer, so Luke, longtime coming, but we're finally on the microphone talking about your journey so far. Thank you for doing this with me.

Luke Brown

Yes, hello, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Zack Arnold

So I want to dig really deep into your entire journey working through the Optimizer community being an Optimizer student. So those that are listening better understand how the process works. And you and I are going to be really, really candid, this is not going to be a bunch of toxic positivity and about how wonderful everything is, you and I are gonna get real about the state of the industry about the state of the economy. But before we get into a lot of the details about your specific journey in the program, what you've learned the challenges that you're facing, I just want to kind of start with the origin story. So give us kind of the the usual background of how your career journey started, how you ended up at NCIS. And then the story ends it when you and I first connected.

Luke Brown

Sure, I'm going to start way back. But I promise it's not going to take long. And I'm going to skip forward. And when I was 10 years old, I snuck downstairs after my parents fell asleep. I turn on the television, and I watched a film called predator. After the film was done, I said, That's what I want to do. Fast forward to nine years ago. I'm here. I'm working on Once Upon a Time. And a mentor of mine calls me up and says I'm an assistant manager at the time. And she says, I'm starting on NCIS New Orleans soon would you like to come with me. And I thought what a great opportunity that would be to prove myself and get into an editor's chair. So I did. And so I was on NCIS, New Orleans for three years. And the four season iron the chair. And I edited seasons four through seven. And then they asked me to come along to NCIS, Hawaii. And I did two seasons of that. Now after the first season, this is 2022 A film came out called prey. And it was a wonderful addition to the predator franchise. And at the end of that film, the same voice said that's what I want to do. And I hadn't heard that voice for a while. And it scared me a little bit. I said to myself, Oh no. So there was so there was suddenly a motivation in me there was a there was a change in the air. When I said and I said it was scary. Because I suddenly felt a lot of fear because I knew that a change needed to happen. But I didn't exactly have the confidence to make that change. I would like in my situation. Have you seen Moana Zack or not? No, you haven't. Okay, well, it's okay. It doesn't matter. Moana is about I just that film comes to mind because my daughter watches it all the time and want therefore I watch it all the time.

Zack Arnold

And it's one of the few that for some reason. I have a whole lot roster of Pixar movies, Disney movies I've seen on a loop. Somehow I skipped that one in the rotation. My daughter's seen it many times. I've never seen it and I still to this day. Don't know how that happened. But anyway, continue.

Luke Brown

It's great. Well Moana is a character who lives on a tropical paradise. It's wonderful, great food, great people, great climate. It's a terrific environment. But unfortunately for her, she's curious. She looks out to the water. And she wonders what's out there. She's a lifelong student. And for whatever reason, she just wants she just wants to know she's curious. And that's how I am and so but what I lost I think In my many years in the industry, was just simply my ability to listen to that part of myself. And I needed to remember what that was like and remember what it's like to embrace fear, and go into the unknown. And I've been listening to your podcast for an awful long time, I've been listening to your podcast, in secret in silence, whatever you want to call it, I was just a listener, ever since the fitness and post days. And also around that time, I had gotten fed up listening to you. Because throughout the years, I've just this and that, and the other thing, I've thought, Man, this guy thinks about the world in a very similar way that I do. And good for him, he seems to be doing things about it, and and helping others, you know, do something about it and cultivate and cultivate a mindset that actually, you know, pushes you to continue to always learn and always improve. And so I thought it was a great time, and perhaps your community would be a great place to get the confidence to access that part of myself. That is a friend of fear, and do what I had to do, which was gracefully, leave a wonderful, wonderful job in the NCIS world.

Zack Arnold

I want to talk so much more about what happens from this point forwards. But before I do that, I want to go backwards just a little bit. And I'm going to share an anecdote that I think I've shared with you before, but I think it's important to share with the community as well. I've been talking for years about understanding that there are very distinct different types of jobs and careers. And I use this framework that I currently call the four types of creative jobs. We've got the paycheck job, we've got the lifestyle job, we've got the career job, and we've got the dream job. And when people are trying to understand the differences, what I've been doing for years, and there was no animosity or no negativity towards it. But I was being brutally honest, I would say, a perfect example of a lifestyle job, I would presume is probably something like an NCIS, where it's a well oiled machine. And it's probably very nice people. It's not crazy hours. But let's be honest, for most people, not everybody, but for most people, it's probably not that creatively fulfilling. It's very formulaic, it's very predictable, and you know exactly what it's going to be each episode. audiences love it. But as somebody that truly wants to challenge themselves creatively, it's probably not the best fitness a great a great example of a lifestyle job. And then you come into the community, and share what came next with confirming whether or not my suspicions were true.

Luke Brown

Your suspicions for me, were personally true. They are, they are not true for everyone, but we're talking about me. And for me, those were true at the time. NCIS was a challenging and nurturing environment for me for a very long time. But like I said, that little voice in my head started talking to me in those in those last seasons. And the message was, you've given all that you can give and you've received all that you can receive. You know, there's, in terms of in terms of this, and as a lifelong learner, there's just there's just more that I have to give and more that I and more than I need to do on on my journey. It was another reason why it was frightening was was because well, it was it was frightening and it was frustrating because I almost wish that I was somebody else when I came to the realization that I needed to leave because if I were somebody else and that and somebody else NCIS might have been their end game and if it was it was just oh man. I so wish you know NCIS for my end game I so wish it were because then I'd be set you know this is perfect. You know it's a it's you work 910 months out of the year it is it is as close to stability as you can as you can possibly get in this volatile industry that we that we work in. But I figured I figured out that that's stability to me on a long enough timeline. It doesn't work and I liked it. I wanted to be I wanted to be uncomfortable again. I I had like I said before with my with my example with predator and prey, I just I've seen too many things that I felt that I could contribute to, if I just gave myself the chance to find out.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, so the really valuable thing that came out of this exercise for me, I hope value came for you as well. But the really valuable part of this exercise for me, and this is something I've talked about for years, but this conversation really helped me solidify it is I get the question all the time? Well, you know, is this this project that I'm looking at? Is this a paycheck job? Is that a lifestyle job? Is that a career job? Is it a dream job? And if somebody were to say, what's the answer is NCIS one of the above my responses, that's up to you, right? And you just alluded to that I always say that one person's paycheck job is another person's dream job. So for you, and I would surmise that, in general, NCIS is closer to a lifestyle job for a lot of people on the show. For others, it's a paycheck job. It's like, I'm only here for the paycheck, right? You probably know a person or two like that. For others. It's a career changing opportunity. So if you rewind when you had the opportunity as an assistant to be on it, career change, or resume changer, right. But perceptions change over time. And for some NCIS: New Orleans dream job, that's exactly what they want to do with their life. It's all about perception. And one of the exercises that I take my students through, including you is better understanding, where's my match quality of the highest based on my skills, my abilities, my past work, experience, my knowledge and my passions? But how does that also align an overlap with my creative calling with what I'm truly called to do the stories that I want to tell? And then kind of the third quadrant or Venn diagram, is Does this meet my needs? Does it respect my boundaries? Or does it cross them? And in order for something really to be a dream job? It's got to be the overlap of all those circles in the Venn diagram. And for you, NCIS was a lifestyle job. And that yeah, it was paying you it was meeting a lot of your necessary needs insurance paycheck, good people didn't have crazy long hours as a father, the piece that was really missing for you was that calling telling the stories that you want to tell? So for anybody that's trying to wrap their head around the framework, there are not black and white answers, that all depends on your perception. And your perception changed of what the show was from the beginning to where it is now. And the reason I bring that up, before we go any further forwards. I think a theme of today's conversation is going to be the voices that are in our head in your your voice that so dominant, is that that's what I want to do. But I'm curious, as soon as you decided, You know what, maybe NCIS isn't for me anymore, and it's comfortable. And it's you said secure. And security is a really big word right now. Was there a voice of how dare you walk away from something this good? Do you realize how many people would kill to be sitting in your chair? Any voices like that chirping up?

Luke Brown

Oh, yes, exactly. Throughout this process, this process was and continues to be a work. There, there have been just as many voices in my head. I mean, throughout throughout this process, I've needed to fight. And I'm going to age myself as Soviet whatever. I've had to fight 43 years at this point of behavioral conditioning. And yes, that that conditioning says, Just be happy with what you got. But there's another voice that says you've made it this far. So why not go a little further? And there were and there were always clashing. It's it's like, you know, the two the two swordsman just backing back and forth. Constantly. So. So yes, there was there was a lot of pressure in my mind about you know, it's different. Now, it's hard to it's harder to take a risk now, because I have a family. It's harder to take a risk now because we have lived through an awful lot in in recent years. We've, we've lived through some very challenging times a pandemic, a year long strike in the industry. But I did notice that there was a pattern in my mind that and it was a pattern of excuse. And that pattern of excuse was very repetitive. Throughout the years. Prior to the pandemic, it was, oh, well we're gonna buy a house this year. You know, so that's so that's a reason to that's a reason to stay put all the pandemic hit. Well, that's a reason to stay put. Now, all the you know, all of the strikes are happening and and over and over and over and over again, you know that the strikes are happening, that's a reason statement. So, but it's just, but it's just gonna go on and on and on and on and on, you know, If not now When, you know, I am a master of excuses. I know that about myself, I'm a master of excuses, and I am prone to negativity. So, you know, those are the two. Those were their, I guess, two things that I, you know, wanted to vanquish a bit and, and flip my mindset from, it's just, if not now, when? Because if I wait until next year, that wasn't working for me before. So why would it work for me again, if I wait until next year, then that's one year less. You know, that's one year, the less of time that I have in the industry to go after what I want.

Zack Arnold

We're going to talk a whole lot more about time and a little bit. The reason being that you had sent me a message sometime late last year deep into the strikes and everything that we've been through with a giant laundry list that I need to scroll on a 27 inch monitor to get through because there are so much of all the things that you accomplished by focusing on the things that you could control versus the things that you couldn't, I don't want to get there quite yet. But I want to make it very clear that how you've used your time has been has been valiant to say the least. And I think it will be invaluable as we go forwards. But I want to zoom in on one part of the story going back to where you said, I'd been listening to the podcast for years, frankly, I was tired of listening to the sound of Zach's voice. And at that moment, I'm like God, so I'm kind of like my wife right now. But having said that, you decided it's no more about passive listening, this is not going to be passive digital mentorship, I'm going to cross the threshold. And I'm going to dive into the community. And I'm going to start taking action. And a lot of the things that we talked about as far as whether or not we want to stay with NCIS, or go and making all these debates that was kind of an ancillary side conversation, the true reason you at least started was to get very strategic about networking. So I want you to share with everybody listening, what was kind of the the moment or the inciting incident where in your mind, you're like, it's time to dive in and figure this out. And why did you choose networking first, rather than bigger picture career development and next steps?

Luke Brown

Well, I chose networking first, because it's staying on I'm staying on a show or with the same with the same group of people. For for such a long time. It's not their fault, of course. But inevitably, it did. It doesn't do much to expand your network. You know, it doesn't. You talk about concentric circles of networking? Well, I realized that I had one circle, I had done some, I've done some networking in between, in between seasons, keeping up with people that I that I wanted to. But what I didn't do, and if I did occasionally, but I certainly didn't do it well, was reach out beyond the scope of people that I that I knew. And something that I learned very early on, it might have been in our first conversation is that is that I need to, you know, I need to tell more people, what I'm capable of doing, you know, and I need, you know, to get out there and simply help more people, you know, accomplish, accomplish their goals. That's how relationships work. You know, it's, it's, it's back and forth. And so you help me, I help I help you, good karma, all of that. But I, so I realized that that just wasn't going to happen. Unless I told unless I told more people about, you know, as you say, the value that I can bring. So I needed to get to work on that, and fast.

Zack Arnold

And you got very, very good at it very quickly. And I don't I don't think that it's an accident. But you can correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't want to put words into your mouth. But the more you started to kind of read the matrix of building your network and doing outreach, which we we dive extensively into the weeds and all the various strategies and formulas and whatnot, none of which we need to get into. But I got the impression that the more you started to read the matrix, the your level of confidence grew that I think I'm ready to take the leap. I always indeed we're dating ourselves here. But I always picture that leap of faith moment from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, right where he knows the bridge must be there. But he's got to take that first step for that bridge to be there. And I felt like you were standing there for a while maybe even years listening to that voice but oh no, I can't take the step yet. I've got the house or the pandemic or x or y or z. What was the moment or the thought or the process within your journey in the program where you finally went from? I'm considering this too. It's time to take the leap of faith. How did that all transpire?

Luke Brown

Oh, boy, well, I guess I'll back up a little bit before the moment. Like I said, I needed to, I needed to build confidence in myself, that I was the, that I was on a level playing field. You know, I'm a full fledged editor. And, and I can I can play, you know, I can play with the other editors in this field. You know, they're, I'm working, I'm strong enough and Gosh, darn it, people like me, you know, it's that.

Zack Arnold

Another 80's reference dating ourselves.

Luke Brown

Yes, exactly. So I needed to do that. And ironically enough, that came through outreach that came through learning the process of outreach. I'm not sure if we've ever talked about this or not. But I actually reconnected with my writers voice. Throughout the throughout the outreach process, and I think that, while it's true that you, you teach a formula about how to properly outreach cold and warm, and how to properly just reach out to people. What I really think you're doing, and at least what I got out of it was, was finding your voice, and, and having the courage to, to actually speak that voice, you know, into the void, or whatever you want to call it. It's very difficult to be vulnerable with the stranger. It really is. And like you said, it is a leap of faith. It is, there's no bridge. But, you know, like, that's, that's why it's so hard to just send that first email, because that's what that that's what that step is. It's a risk, right? But it's a it's a classic relationship, risk equals reward. So what I got out of it was that I actually had, I reconnected with my writers voice. And we actually did one particular outreach email, I think it was my first. And, you know, as we, as we go further and further into it, I just noticed that okay, the more honest and the more genuine and the more sincere, and the more vulnerable, I'm willing to be. That it all equals honesty, you know, and that's, and that's respectful. And then people genuinely appreciate that and respond to it. So I so I think the I think the outreach process is really is really just, you know, finding that finding that voice and having, you know, and all our voices are very vulnerable, and having the strength to actually put that out into the world.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I think you articulated that very well. And I'm just going to add a little bit to it, which is that my approach to outreach, as you already know, is not all about templates, it's not all about tactics, right? If there's a formula to it, that's very simple to follow. But ultimately, if you can be authentic, if you can be vulnerable, and you can portray confidence, that's going to lead to the best result with outreach. But without even really kind of consciously seeing this. At first, I realized that in order to be able to do those things to reach out authentically be vulnerable and portray confidence. There's a world of work that needs to happen underneath, it's much deeper, that is more about understanding, why do I do the work that I do? And how do I even have the confidence that I bring value to the world. And all of that comes just from Oh, wait, I have to write one outreach email to somebody that I admire. That's why it takes weeks to write one message. Once you write the one message, you're off to the races, and you know the formula. But there are much much deeper questions other than how many words should this be? And how quickly do I follow up afterwards, you really have to know yourself to find that authenticity, that vulnerability and build that confidence. And I think you did all three with flying colors, and you really found your voice and went from at least from what I remember, the first couple of drafts was like, yeah, there's a lot of really bad habits here that you've been taught. But I can see that the raw materials there. And then within like two weeks, all of a sudden, you just completely popped off the page. I was like, Holy crap, this is somebody I want to connect with. And I want to help and if I'm on the receiving end of this, I would enthusiastically want to respond help set up zoom calls. And I felt that once you kind of cracked the code for yourself, because for everybody, that code is different. You were off to the races. So let's talk a little bit more about some of the deeper lessons you learned about relationship building and some of the wins that you had along the way because all of that factors into that moment of I'm ready, I'm going to very politely decline And I'm gonna move on beyond the show.

Luke Brown

Yes, not not to keep anybody in suspense. I will share that moment and when we get to it now.

Zack Arnold

So yeah, let's talk about this, this process of finding your voice some of the wins that you got through the networking outreach that finally led to that moment of taking the leap of faith.

Luke Brown

Sure, well, the first outreach message that I sent, the, the recipient of it was actually an urgent care at the time that it was delivered to her inbox.

Zack Arnold

Which PS you didn't know. So it's not like, Oh, God, he's telling his students to send messages while they're in the hospital. Like, clearly, we didn't know that, but go on.

Luke Brown

No, that was definitely not intentional. I felt really, really bad about that. I would never bother somebody in urgent care intentionally. But nevertheless, it got to her inbox when she was in urgent care. And she liked it so much, that she responded from urgent care. Now, in urgent care, you have bigger fish to fry, you know, when then you do then what's in your email. But I think she but she, you know, I think and she said as much that she responded to it, just because it, it touched her in, she was flattered by it and genuinely happy to, to have received it. And, you know, once I, once I understood, you know, see, you know, if you, if you put yourself out there, you know, the worst that can happen is nothing. And the best that can happen is something like that, where you just made somebody's day. And there's nothing at all that's wrong with that. No, I know, I gave her just a little bit, you know, of happiness and positivity in what I'm sure was not a good day. And I think that's why she responded to it. And to me, that's the that's the winner of that. So, and that felt good. That felt really, really good. I mean, at that point, Zach, I, I honestly forgotten about, oh, yeah, I want to go out there and get another job. I'd forgotten about that. Entirely. And all I wanted to do was, was keep doing that it's it's like a, it's the best drug that you can take, you know, really is, is just, you know, oh my gosh, I help that person through whatever it was they were going through. And, and that's fantastic. That, you know, the secret to doing good is that, you know, it makes you feel arguably even better. So.

Zack Arnold

A lot, one thing to interject very quickly. And I'll let you continue just to help people really picture the quality of your email, not only did this person respond from urgent care, but this is very high level executive producer on one of the top shows on one of the top streaming platforms with a star that's recognizable, probably everywhere on the planet is one of the top 10 stars in the world. So just picture that quintessential, stereotypical, stereotypical producer on their iPhone, desperately trying to deal with all the chaos on their life from urgent care. And your message hit the spot. So well, she stopped everything. And she responded and then followed up afterwards. Like that speaks to the quality of your voice and the work that you put into this message. So I just I wanted to add that addendum so people understand how impossible it should have been for you to not only get a response, but get this person's attention. So that speaks to the work that you put in there. Now continue.

Luke Brown

No, you said great, to build off of what you just said, I think it's I think it's very important to I think it's very important to do the work. And I know, you think it's very important to do the work. And that's something that I really enjoyed about. I really enjoyed and continue to enjoy about your program. I think we have I think especially these days, it's almost worth it to redefine what the word work means. Because according to my behavioral conditioning, I'm just accessing my brain right now. When I think of the word work, what automatically pops into my head is something that like, oh work, that's something that I have to do. But what if work, were something that you wanted to do. What if we redefine what if we redefined work period because the word work almost has a negative connotation. And what I really liked about it Your program, I almost wish there were a different word for it. But, you know, I can't really think of one right now. But what I really liked about your program is that the work, especially after the, the first outreach email, and no longer felt like work, I genuinely, you know, in the, in the traditional sense of the word, I genuinely wanted to do more of it, I genuinely wanted to work on myself, I genuinely wanted to face myself. And, and you can do that, you know, in your program. And, and you've proven to me and other students that you're, you know, therefore, every step of the way in whatever capacity you want us to be. Or we want you to be Excuse me. So, but But yes, that's a one message that I want to add is that one message that I want to add is to, is for everyone to, as long as you do your part, as long as you're willing to do the work, you're going to find, you're going to find success and Optimize Yourself. But if you're not going to do the work, then that will be that's going to be very difficult. So, but as long as you are willing to do it, you're going to you're going to get results, it's going to happen, I don't mean to sound like an advertisement, I really, really don't. Like I said I was highly skeptical of you for years. I did not know if you're a salesman or not. And I thought long and hard about it before, before I came to you. But you have proven to be a genuine individual. And, and you sincerely want to help people, you know, access strength that they didn't know that they had. And I feel like I did that very quickly. And I continue to, you know, build that as we speak.

Zack Arnold

Well, I very much appreciate all that it's very, very meaningful. And I'll make sure to Zelle you that $100 I promise you. So.

Luke Brown

Yeah. Okay. I'll give you several accounts.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, kidding. All right. So moving forwards. I'm now literally on the edge of my seat, because this is a big pivotal moment for you. Take us through, I'm ready to take that first step in that leap of faith.

Luke Brown

Okay, well, I went through several hot seats with you, and exhausted the possibilities. I threw every argument I could for staying at NCIS. And as we as we talk through them, you asked me challenging questions, that it's hard for me to think of the word because I don't think that you refuted my claims or any of that. But but you just simply you asked me good questions, you asked me questions that the just that that challenged, that challenged my notions, perhaps you may have identified limiting beliefs, etc. But so we really exhausted the possibilities of the of the risk of sticking around. Now, that's what we came to. And there was you actually had a podcast interview. You know, I was ready to do it. But I kind of needed I needed a bit of a catalyst I just needed. Like the Joker says in Dark Knight, like just a little plush. And that little push came from your interview with Annie Duke. Annie Duke is the author of quit. That's another word that I think needs serious redefinition. And there was a there was an exercise that she talked about. There's all kinds of pearls of wisdom in that book. Too many dimension, but one that did it for me. And we actually did this exercise you and I was I forget what it was called. You remember what it was called?

Zack Arnold

It's the expected value exercise.

Luke Brown

The expected value exercise, right? So and it was, you can correct me if I don't get this right, but we just Okay, so pretend it's a year from now. And you do another season of NCIS. Has your situation changed? You know, are you further towards what you want in your heart of hearts? Now what percentage you know, are you closer to your ultimate goal? And when I was asked that question, the answer brutally was zero. Now, the next question was okay, you know, say you're not working in NCIS anymore. And, and ignore, I mean, we don't know the future. So we didn't so we can't say where Your ad, you know, but what we can say is that you're not ad is that you're not in NCIS, you're not in the same place. So then given that, what is the percentage that you're like, what's the probability that you're closer to your goal. And while I didn't have an exact number, I can tell you one thing, the number was higher than zero, it is inevitably higher than zero, I don't care if it's 1%, or anywhere from 1% to 100%, if it's 1%, that is, you are 1% more likely to be closer to where you're at, depending on what you do between now and that, if I were to continue, you know, as I as I was, which wasn't working for me, then the likelihood that my situation would be improved. As far as my personal goals go, would be zero. And so and so that you know, those numbers. I'm a bit of a, you know, I'm also just a personal finance guru. And so when I see hard numbers like that, those are very hard to ignore. And suddenly, and suddenly, after that, I just, it's seven. I knew what I knew what I had to do. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry about what's how, what Hollywood has done between now and then. But that's not up to me. And I can't control that.

Zack Arnold

So the next thing that I want to dig into that I think, was expertly managed and navigated that I think really needs to be a part of this conversation. Before we get to what happened. Next, I want to talk about how you actually approach the show runners, because one of the biggest fears when somebody wants to take this leap of faith, and they want to go a different direction is, yeah, but I don't want to burn any bridges, or I don't want to offend people, or there's so many different ways to go about this both the right way and the wrong way. And I don't think he could have been more expertly navigated. So for those that are thinking, I'm kind of in this place, but I even if I made the decision, and the math and the probability told me this was the right way to do it. I don't know how to do it. So before we talk about after talk a little bit about how you navigated this, because this is very challenging.

Luke Brown

Yeah, no kidding. It was, it was very challenging, because something very tough about this is that, you know, above all else, I did not want to hurt the show, or the people on it is very important to me. Because, as I mentioned before, I mean, it was a it was a nurturing and challenging environment that was that I'm, I was allowed to prosper through for so many years. And, and I did not want to, I didn't want to pay them back for that. By leaving them hanging in the middle of the season, or, or something like that. So what I saw, what I wanted to do was make sure that we that what I did was also was also best for them, you know, I also just wanted to make sure that, like I said that it wasn't going to that it wasn't going to hurt them that it wasn't going to hurt the show in any way. You know, I just don't think that's respectful and my conscience just simply wouldn't let me do that. So you know, there are there are three ways of going about it. You know, there's the way that's best for me the way that's best for them, you know, or, you know, as in any negotiation, you know, maybe there's a way, you know, where we both walk away, not entirely happy. But we're also unscathed.

Zack Arnold

All parties are equally dissatisfied this way I've ever heard a compromise described. Right?

Luke Brown

Right. Right, right. So, so what I did was at the end of the season, I felt that honesty was the best policy. And this is right around the time when Hollywood was gearing up for some strikes. We didn't know if they were going to happen. But, you know, it was it was on the horizon. But I wanted to stay focused just with my own timeline. So I felt that it was important to be honest with them. And so I went to them. And I and I told them that I would like to help them as long as I possibly could. They've done so much for me over the years and and I certainly I certainly owe that to them. But I also owe them honesty And that honestly was I believed that it was time for me to pursue the next challenge. And, and they appreciated that honestly. And they told me, they told me right off the bat that what I've done was rare. And there was a high level of integrity to it. And that was really, and that was really music to my ears. Because I think my biggest fear in all of this was that what I was going to do, was going to unravel all of the accomplishments that I had had up to this point, aka, burn bridges. And I had seen that happen in my career several several times before. And whether it was fine or not, there are there were always lingering effects, whether, you know, people in the office would say, oh, yeah, I've heard it all everything from you know, oh, yeah, we're never considering that person again. You know, to know, yeah, you know, kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. But I get it, I guess. And, you know, there's, there's, there's potential consequences. And I wanted to see if I could do this, without without consequence. And the way to do that is even on the way out, I wanted to make sure that I provided the kind of value that they provided me. And I'm happy to report that they assured me of that. And they told me that when they heard of other projects, that I would be their first call.

Zack Arnold

So well, what you did, it was you, you navigated it as absolutely, definitely authentically and honestly, as you could, and I don't remember exactly what our conversations were, but I, I wouldn't be surprised if I went back into the transcripts that I probably said something along the lines of, if you do this, right, not only will they not respect you less, they'll probably respect you even more, and they're going to want to work with you even more. But if you go in, you're like, sorry, guys can't do it. Or you know, I found another show or whatever it might be, then yeah, you're like, well, you're off their list. But you actually build a stronger relationship and earn more respect, just by being honest about like you said, like, you've been immensely valuable to me, I'm, I'm where I am because of you. And this is a great nurturing creative environment. I'm ready for the next stage of my journey. A lot of people behind the scenes and I know this, because people have told me this, they're like, I actually respected you more, because I've wanted to do the same thing. And I didn't have the guts to do it. People respect that. The right people. Now on the other hand, and this I'm not speaking to you specifically, but to others that might be in a place where they're like, my boundaries are constantly disrespected, I'm treated like shit. All the things that I was promised on this project are not following through. Go scorched earth, is that a bridge? Have you ever walked across again, anyways? Just say, sorry, I'm giving you my notice. I'm out Friday, right? I'm okay with that, because you're being treated the same way. And they deserve the same amount of respect. But in your situation, it was so much more important to you to maintain the relationship. And I don't think you maintained it, I think you strengthened it by walking away the way that you did. So that's why I wanted to talk about this because it's so hard to navigate this part of the process. And you did a really, really good job of it.

Luke Brown

Oh, thank you. Sorry, don't go no, go ahead. Just to add a little evidence to your claim. I'm still in touch with everyone there. And it's and it's great. Just the other day, my my former co producer that I worked with for many years, he sent me he sent me two job opportunities to look into.

Zack Arnold

That's pretty awesome.

Luke Brown

So, you know, if that's not if that's not value, then then I don't know what is. Yeah, I, I regret nothing of that. And I really do think that I really do think that, despite this industry, making it so difficult to do. I mean, let's not forget how hard this was to actually do to approach it this way. Honesty really is the best policy and, and I think what, it's something that we should all try to do, if we can, is to empower us, empower ourselves to make those kinds of tough decisions. Something that we something we haven't talked about, which I think is timely right now. And I believe you teach this as well, in your finances course, is the way to empower yourself in in these decisions. So, you know, I was also financially ready to to make the jump and and I mentioned that Uh, you know, not for some bragging reason or any of that, but I had been preparing for this moment as well in in that sense. So, once once I knew that we were good financially, and I had spoken to my family about it, and got the go ahead that it was okay to do. No, that's when I also knew that I could, that I could make the hard choice. But in order to make hard choices in this industry, you have to empower yourself. And that's, and that's one way to do it, you know, like how you do it. You know, that's, that's up to you. But if you can, but, you know, learn I, something I want to throw out there, you know, is to learn how to financially empower yourself, and, and hard decisions will be easier to make.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I'm very glad you brought that up. And it's going to increase the gazelle contribution. I think now I'm up to $200 for all the testimonials. But the, this was a conversation that you and I had. And usually the voice that's the loudest when it comes to Should I stay or should I leave as the voice of somebody's bank account. And in a million years, if somebody had said that the two main areas that you're going to focus your attention teaching creatives are going to be how to write emails, and how to manage their finances, I would have called them nuts. But what I found is that the two areas of the menu that we talked about in the program, where so many people get stuck is either I don't know how to connect with people. So I can expand my network and expand my opportunities. But I can't afford to leave where I'm stuck now. Which is why I filled both of those gaps. Luckily for you, we didn't have to talk about money at all. But that's such an important component to this, because a lot of people can be thinking, I've done the expected value equation, it's 0% and 100%. I know I'd be happier if I left, but I can't afford it. Right. And you have to set yourself up for that scenario. So you have the freedom to say no to the wrong projects and the wrong people. But that takes time. And it takes a system. So I'm not going to go into that anymore, because we've got other fish to fry. But I recognize that was a necessary gap that had to be filled, because that's usually the biggest fear and the loudest voice. So speaking of things being timely and going into this concept of time, let's talk about the timing of when you made this decision and how it aligned with certain things going on in the industry.

Luke Brown

Yes, I'm on the surface, it's it looks like quite a choice, right?

Zack Arnold

Hindsight is 2020.

Luke Brown

Yeah, I thought about that. I thought about that an awful lot. But I'm going to go back, I'm going to go back a little bit, just to just a reference that another hobby of mine is personal finance, I read a lot about it. I'm I'm a fire disciple and the Bogle head. And within those communities, there's a lot of there's a lot of good lessons to learn. And one of the lessons when it comes to investing some common advice, that's that's often given on forums, people will come to forums and they will ask, Hey, you know, I have kind of a large chunk of dough that I'd like to invest, you know, should I put it all in once, you know, or shall I just trickle it in over time? And eight out of 10 times, or seven out of 10 times? I can't remember what the data is, but it's but it's quite high. You're better off investing it as soon as you can, all at once. And you might ask why is that? And the reason is because time in the market beats timing the market. What I'd been doing prior to last year was I was trying to time the market and by trying to time the market. You know, I would just I would never invest. Now. That's that's what happened. No, I just I was always waiting for just the exact right moment, right? Just the just, if we continue with the analogy, just oh man, when's the market going to dip to it's just the lowest level it's ever been, you know, and then we're gonna put it all in there, you know, and I'm gonna be rich. But nobody knows what the market is going to do. Ever. You know, I don't care how much of a master you are. Nobody can tell the future. Nobody. You know, try, we try all the time. But we cannot. And so, you know, time in the market beats timing beats timing the market. And that's why I did what I did. The short answer to your question is because I'm gonna die someday. And I will answer your question with a question. What can you always make more of?

Zack Arnold

Always make more money.

Luke Brown

Correct. What can you never make more of?

Zack Arnold

Time

Luke Brown

Precisely, time is a finite commodity. Unlike in the cutting room, in real life, we cannot change time. We can't use time warps, we can't cut montages, we can't add scenes, we can't lose scenes, time goes by. And this at the same amount for eternity. And the only thing that we can do about it is, is act in his favor. And so I felt, well, if I continue to time the market, and do this next year, then I'm going to be in the same situation all over again, and have one less year to do it. So, you know, again, like I, I like numbers like that, and it's very difficult for me to, to argue against that. And so whether we, you know, whether the industry was going to have the year that it did last year, you know, was on a long enough timeline irrelevant, because of the timeline. You know, again, if you look at if you look at whatever, you know, the s&p 500 or something, over time, it goes up, it goes down, it goes up, it goes down, it goes up, it goes down. But if you draw a line straight through the peaks and the valleys, the trajectory is forward thinking, and it always increases. So again, time in the market beats timing the market.

Zack Arnold

I love it. I know that at least with where I am right now, if we had the tools with editing as we could apply those to real life, I am well between the endpoint and the output of where I'd like to put a fluid morph. Right, I'm right in the dead center of if I could just extract this whole piece. And I could get to the point of where I want to be next in the story. I have a dead center where there needs to be a fluid morpher dissolve. And I think a lot of people feel that way. But we don't have that luxury, right? We want to extract it and just fast forward. But we're here. And this is what I really want to get into next, which was really the impetus for having this conversation. Is that giant laundry list of all the things that you did with your time because you made a very conscious decision. You said that? Yes, this is probably the worst time I could make this decision. Short term. If I if you were, you know, a daily investor, right. Like, if you were a day trader, you made a horrible decision. But if you're looking at the trends over time, that moment is going to come and we're going to talk about that when Hindsight is going to say, Wow, this was the inflection point of all of the gains that I've gotten. But you're you're in the messy middle right now. And you decided I'm going to focus on the things that I can't control and ignore the things that I can't. So you don't need to recite the note word for word. But I want to give everybody listening some idea of how you've been able to leverage all of the time that you've had since the strike started.

Luke Brown

Yes, well, when the when the strike started. I got busy right away, because that that happened to coincide actually when you know, NCIS and I parted ways I believe

Zack Arnold

Was it like almost the same day, if I remember correctly?

Luke Brown

Not quite the same day. It was the same week.

Zack Arnold

Yeah. Close enough. Yeah. And the graph in history and on a graph, it's going to be the same dot.

Luke Brown

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So and so I got busy right away. You know, the the next, you know, how long did How long did the strike technically last seven months?

Zack Arnold

Years. It feels like you have something like that? Yeah. Seven, eight months?

Luke Brown

Oh, yeah. If you're well, yeah. If you include the long game in it, you know, then then yes, it's it's a year still, you know, still pending. But, but I got busy right away. I wrote. And I wrote, and I wrote, I reached out. And I reached out. And I reached out, not just to not just to people whose work that I admired, but also to people who were in my network, but but I did not foster I did not foster the relationship. And I wanted to rekindle that. And so, you know, throughout that throughout all of last year, you know, I was, you know, I was I was reaching out, I was, I was scheduling meetings, I was I was driving all over, you know, all over Los Angeles, meeting people old and new, and just proving to myself that I actually had, you know, a much bigger network than I than I initially thought. There were a lot of really good surprises there. And, you know, I also just had a lot list of things of things to do some of it, it was always on the it was always on the Sunday pile, you know, which never, which never happens. But in this case, it did happen. Because I was motivated to I was motivated to make it happen, you know, because, well, I, you know, I, I took my, you know, I took the rug out from underneath me, and it was just okay, you know, the only way, the only way through, I guess, like, the only way forward is straight through this, you know, so. So I needed to, I wanted to design and design and build my own website. And so I had to first learn that, and then do it, you know, which took, we took a couple months in and of itself. But the beauty of living today is that there's all kinds of resources that can that can help you do that. And then they're very easy to find. So I, you know, so I did that. And, and it was complete within about page and you know, not to mention that I also needed to go through all of my, you know, all of my previous work. So just a decade's worth of content, pick out the best stuff, you know, deliberately, for a reason, categorize it and get it all up on here, you know, to, you know, to accurately tell people, what I'm capable of, you know, what my creative calling is, you know, and what I can do to help them. And so I didn't, so I did that. And I also took the opportunity within all of that, to learn from your Pro, which I'd wanted to do for years, because that's only going to increase your employability. And, and so I used Premiere Pro to do all of that. But so those were just some very concrete steps that had always been on the back burner, that that cannot hurt whatsoever. And I also did a, you know, did a strong, deep dive with you regarding resumes. And, and now I have many a resume, depending on depending on the genre, you know, in doing resumes. Yes, I won't get into my TED talk about having a resume, but the days are over or you have a resume, you're making resumes. And you, you you, you really ran with that idea? I did it was it was a good one I was. Yeah, when you when we started working on the resume, I was just, you know, light bulb flashing intrigue. But I'll just say this about, I'll just say this about resumes. What's when you have a resume, you know, and it's a list of what you've done. Ask yourself this, what's the difference between this and what's on IMDb? And I'm gonna end it there.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, because if there is no difference, it's gonna, you're definitely going to be limiting your future opportunities for sure. And, and again, I don't want to go off on a huge tangent and make this into a TED talk, because I talk about this all the time, and I'll be talking about it more. But if anybody's ever gotten advice about this is what needs to be on your resume, you have to consider where the advice is coming from. If you're brand new in your career, and you're making a major career transition, whatever it might be, and you're talking to somebody, somebody very successful and experienced in your field, that's 10 years ahead of you. And you say, Hey, can you show me your resume, so I know what mine should look like, it's the worst possible thing you can do, because where they are in their journey is very different than where you are in yours. And you're telling two very different stories to a very different audience. I'll leave it at that for now. But you really took that idea and you ran with it, and you got multiple resumes that tell different stories, based on the people that it's going to be in front of. And just to put a little bit more emphasis on something you said earlier, as far as putting in the work, we got to the point where that if I did hot seats in a literal classroom, I would have put a plaque on the chair that just says reserved for Luke Brown. Because Tuesday at 9am, I didn't even have to look at who was on the calendar, you are always there asking questions, putting in the work. So I very, very much appreciate that. And you put in the work, you get results. It's a very simple formula.

Luke Brown

But that's a two way street. I don't run from help. I know what it is when I see it. And I don't know enough about this about this life to not need help. You know, so you were providing it and you continue to provide it. So, you know, watch out because if you keep if you keep if you keep teaching things, you know, then I'm going to keep coming back.

Zack Arnold

I'm gonna hold you to that I now have that on the record. So speaking of constructing the narrative of this journey, and coming at it as editors, you know, we talked about We've got the endpoint in the outpointed, this giant section, this is all the struggle, this is all the strife, God wouldn't be great to just fluid more of this out here and make it a seamless transition. But honestly, that's usually the best part of the story, right? That's deep in the heart of Act Two, it's the trials, the tribulations as the obstacles as the overcoming adversity. Then all of a sudden, we have this moment at Act Three, it all comes together, it all makes sense. And in hindsight, you look back, and you're like, This is the best decision I ever made. So let's talk about that big aha moment that you've had this just proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you made the right decision. And it's all worked out great.

Luke Brown

TBD.

Zack Arnold

Interesting. We're not there yet, are we?

Luke Brown

We're not there yet. Which is why it was so intriguing when you asked me to come and talk about this.

Zack Arnold

And that's the whole reason we're here. And it took us over an hour to get to this point, but by design, but I was very strategic and choosing somebody that was in the middle of the journey that didn't have the success story. They couldn't say it all worked out great. The reason being you are in the same place that so many other people are in right now. And I want everybody to understand what's going through your mind because there are real fears, there are real voices. And I don't have all the answers. I can't confidently with 100% success, say leaving NCIS was the best decision you ever made. I'm still very confident that moments coming, but it hasn't come yet. So I don't have 100% confidence. So what are some of the real fears and challenges that you're facing right now that I believe so many others are also probably facing?

Luke Brown

I'm really glad you asked that question. I almost stopped you earlier, so that we could go back to it. As far as my accomplishments over the strike, and give you some more context. It has not been easy. You know, there, it's been hard. It's been hard. But a big fear that I've had throughout it, I've I've gone through and I've talked to others, and they've gone through it too. You know, I've had to navigate my way through a very real identity crisis, frankly, you know, the, the lack of work has has all of us questioning, you know, I questioned myself just wait, I'm not editing anything? Well, well, then what am I? What good? Am I what use of my I'm an editor, you know, why why am I not anything is, you know, is that all I am? What am I supposed to? What am I supposed to be? You know, I have had to, you know, question? Everything. I mean, this, this choice has, has forced me, you know, to reframe all of my basic assumptions about my duties as a husband, my duties as a father, you know, what I expect of myself in that way. So, so it, so it has not been easy, I'll tell you about for as much as I've accomplished in this time, and it has been a lot, I have been very, very motivated, and the accomplishments have, you know, have helped me a great deal, you know, in navigating the mental challenge of all of this, but, but I, there have been very tough days, I would say, my, my toughest day when I hit rock bottom, was probably a couple of months after I'd after I left NCIS. And it was really setting in that that just okay, you know, these strikes are going to be for the long haul. You know, I, I knew that the strikes were going to be we're going to be big. No, I knew that they were going to be long. And I knew that it was going to be a watershed moment. You know, but I but I think like many others did not anticipate their their real length. But this was around the time when it was starting to feel that way. That that hope was leaving. And I remember getting up and just and just being full of fear and regret. And all I could do that day was make myself the greasiest three cheese grilled cheese sandwich, you know that day. And I and I think I watched three bad, you know, 90 Steven Seagal flicks. And I felt like collapsing upon myself. I really did. So it has been a struggle and And, you know, and I've had to, I'm a big fan of cognitive therapy. And, and I'm a big fan of it because cognitive therapy, it just, it works for me because I'm a, I'm a person that if I can demonstrate through action that I can, that I can pick myself up again that I can get myself out of holes. You know, then, you know, then that's real evidence that, you know, hey, I'm okay, I'm okay. I'm okay. But, you know, I have had to navigate all of those, all of those challenges, there were there were days that I didn't want to wake up. But, but I will say that, to do that, you have to, you have to allow yourself to have those feelings, it's okay. You have to allow yourself to, to sit in those feelings. We feel what we're going to feel we don't control what we feel, we feel what we're going to feel, and then we control our reaction to it. So my sister is a psychiatrist, and she told me about this great. Now I wish I could remember, you know, the, the doctor it's attributed to, but it's this, this this concept called Coping ugly. And you know, how there's the five stages of grief and coping ugly. argues that the five stages of grief don't necessarily have to happen in that order that you read them, you know, maybe, maybe one day, you'll be in the acceptance phase, you know, and you're all right. And then, and then the very next day, you're in the denial phase, you know, or the anger phase, you know, or the bargaining phase, whatever it is, that is all, okay. Now you have, you have got to allow yourself that. And then if you allow yourself that, you'll know, when the time is, you'll know the difference between sulking and just allowing yourself to feel what you need to feel. You know, so that's something that's something that my, my dad growing up always, always talked to me a lot about was to just, you know, not ignore your feelings that way, you know, and let yourself you know, let yourself feel, you know, don't, you don't need to sulk, you know, you don't need to, you know, do self punishment and wallow in self pity. But you, but it is okay. And, you know, honestly, a lot of things that I felt bad about were were things that were beyond my control. You know, there was because we're last year, we were surrounded by hardship. So, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. You know, it wasn't? You know, there was there was darkness to it.

Zack Arnold

Yeah, I'm very appreciative of the fact that you were you were willing to share all that and be candid about it. And I just want to make sure to add on to people that I love that you you shared this concept of, it's okay to feel all of these things. Because I think that there's so much conditioning, especially the older generations of which I now include myself in that, that you just you don't feel it, there's no time to feel those feelings, just suck it up and deal with it, this is the way that it is. And I think we have to accept that and be willing to feel them. And in general, my rule is that whenever something really shitty happens, lose a job, lose some money to have whatever it might be right, like failing on American Ninja Warrior twice. You know, I've been through my share of failures, I allow myself to feel all of it, I eat like you said, the grilled cheese, I'll eat the pizza, or the cookies, or the ice cream or whatever, right? Like I've got a 72 hour window where it's just f the world, I'm just going to sulk and I'm going to be negative, and I'm going to be an acid don't even come around because I'm going to snap at you, right? Monday morning. That's this is my reality, I take responsibility for my reality. And it's back to work. But what I've also learned from many years of managing mental health issues, anxiety, depression, is that if on that Monday morning after the 72 hour clock is at zero, if you still can't get out of bed, or you still can't bring yourself to take the actions and it goes from 72 hours to a week to a month to more. That's where it's time to get outside intervention and outside help. And that's where I think whether it's cognitive behavioral therapy, other modalities of therapy, and even if you can't afford them, reaching out to people that can just help you get out of it. I'm going to make sure that we put resources to a multitude of conversations we've had with therapists, including a recent conversation with bestselling author Brad Stolberg, where we talk all about how to navigate uncertainty and change and and how to get that motivation to move again, but especially because there's been And so much inertia for now, frankly, almost a year for a lot of people. If it's not a matter of I'm going to feel the feels for 72 hours and wake up on Monday and get it done. If you're still stuck, it's okay to not only share that, but to ask for help. And I think you've been a really good advocate for that in the community. And I just I wanted to put that out wider to everybody.

Luke Brown

Yes, I completely agree, I would, I would see that and raise it. You know, it is not weak, to acknowledge that you need help. It is not weak, to ask for help. It is not weak, to get help. It is strong. Why is that strong? Because you're strong enough to acknowledge you know, that there's that there's something, there's something inside of you, there's a part of you that you want to improve. There's a part of you that you want to face. And that's really difficult to do.

Zack Arnold

So I've got two more questions. The last one, I think is going to be a good one. This next one I think is going to be hard. But you're no stranger to adversity, like, I have metaphorically put you through the wringer I have literally put you through the wringer in the trenches with burpees and literal trenches and barbed wire and like we've, we've done all of it at this point. This is a hard question. I have no idea what your answer is going to be. What's stopping you from calling NCIS and say, Okay, I changed my mind, I want to go back to work. Why haven't you done that yet?

Luke Brown

I haven't done that. Because that is not, that is not in service of what my greatest fear is, you know, that I want to that I want to avoid? My greatest fear is that I'll be on my deathbed. And I'll ask myself the question, Did I leave anything on the table? And my greatest fear is that the answer to that question is yes. And my purpose in life is to make sure that the answer to that question is no. And if I were to go back there, it has nothing to do, you know, with has nothing to do with NCIS. You know, or its people, you know, or, or any of that. It's just that I don't see that, you know, as I don't see that as a as a path forward. I don't see that as as in service of my deeper why, you know, like, and to use terms that. I don't know if they're coined by you or not, but

Zack Arnold

I'm sure I've I've probably usurped them stolen, them cobbled them together from a variety of other places. Because at this point, what I've learned from years of personal professional development, all the reading, everybody has said everything, it's just the order of the words, right. So very, very rarely Am I willing to attribute something to myself, because it's just a combination of what everybody else has already said and shared. So it's what they call standing on the shoulders of giants. So final question, which is kind of an addendum or an extension of part one, potentially, which is knowing what you know, now, but not knowing what's to come next. Get yourself in a time machine for a second, and go back to the day that you make the decision of whether or not you're going to stay or leave NCIS. What do you tell yourself knowing what you know now?

Luke Brown

I would do the same thing. I would do the same thing. I would do the same thing. Let me back up to your to your question before, you know I'm out about asking to come back to to NCIS I also think and another factor in my decision I just wanted to get less existential about it was there was there was also in my in my heart, I mean, when I have when somebody's entrusted me to help them tell the best version of their story. You know, then I give my mind and my heart to that. And if I didn't, not giving all of my mind and all of my heart to it, you know, then that is depriving them of somebody that would because there's always somebody out there that would and, and I think if I stayed at NCIS longer, then that would also be doing them a disservice because I feel like you know the quality of my quality of my work. I don't think the quality of it would deteriorate, you know, but I but I do think you know that the that the passion you know, perhaps even the enthusiasm, that that may wane and And I don't think that that's respectful of anyone that that has entrusted you to, you know, help them with their, to help them with their story. So, so that. So just to back up a little bit on that and give in. That's my attempt to give you a more practical reason.

Zack Arnold

And I appreciate that. And I think that that's it's a very courageous and admirable decision. That's also terrifying because going back to where we talked about compromise earlier, you said, Well, there's a decision that's best for me, there's the decision that's best for them. And maybe we can find a compromise in the middle. And there's a lot of this, that's making the best decision for them short term, it's like, Oh, my God, we gotta find another editor. And Luke already knows how we like our notes. And like our transitions and like short term, it creates some discomfort and some challenges. But if you're thinking bigger picture, especially show like NCIS is probably going to be on for another 50 years, right. So eventually, they're going to find somebody that can fill that role. And somebody that does see it is their career opportunity that wants to give it their all, it's better for them that you choose not to continue. And that's something that a lot of people lose sight of. So I think it's very admirable that you made that choice for, for your needs, but also really understanding their needs and seeing it from their perspective, which is why I believe it was such an amicable parting of ways that's led to increased respect and also potential future opportunities. So I could go on about all of this forever in a day, but I want to be very respectful of your time. And in the spirit of networking and community building and supporting each other. Would you be okay, for those that wanted to reach out and connect with you? And if so, how can they do that? And also, how can they find more about you and your work?

Luke Brown

Oh, yes, I'd, I'd be happy. I'd be happy to be contacted by anyone that thinks that, you know, that I can help them along with with their challenges. You can go to my website, that's lukewbrown.com. My email address is luke@lukewbrown.com. And I have IMDb profiles, and I have Facebook and I think I'm on X. I think I'm still on X.

Zack Arnold

I refuse to call it X. By the way, it will always be called Twitter until right? It's not a business. That's a whole other podcast.

Luke Brown

Right? Right. I'm not very, I'm not very good with social with social media. So if you would like to contact me, I would contact me through my website or my email address. That's what, that's what I prefer.

Zack Arnold

Well, I just want to end by saying I had high expectations for this conversation. I know that you and I have had some really great conversations during hot seats during classes. I had very high expectations, you exceeded them. I thought this was a fantastic conversation. I really hope that those that are listening, find value in it and more importantly, find some hope and inspiration in it because I think the more than anything, that's what we all require and what we really need right now. And I think you brought that in so so I just wanted to thank you one more time for being a valued member of the community, a valued student and a valued Spartan literally in the trenches with me along the way. So I appreciate all that and more. Thank you.

Luke Brown

You're very welcome. I'm glad I could help.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai